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Who Doesn't Dare, Loses
   Next Article → INDIA-PAKISTAN: Walls Close In On Moslem Militants

September 8, 2008: British special operations operatives have a motto; "who dares, wins." An example of how this doesn't work can be found in the American CIA (Central Intelligence Agency). Over the last three decades, the  CIA has come under a lot of criticism for not being able to do their job. They have done that by not taking chances. The most spectacular recent example was the failure to spot the terrorist operation that led to the September 11, 2001 attacks. While much blame was justifiably heaped on the FBI, it was the CIA that had first detected the plotters, and was already under orders to stop al Qaeda attempts to make more attacks on the United States. All this began a decade earlier, when al Qaeda damaged New York City's World Trade Center in 1993 bombing. The 2001 attacks did not come out of nowhere. But the CIA had problems at the top (where decisions about what leads to pursue, how, and to what extent all this is shared with the FBI), and at the bottom (and the inability to infiltrate al Qaeda.)

At the same time, other intelligence agencies, like Britain's MI-6 and the Israeli Mossad are much better at gathering information at ground level. They, like most nations, recognize that intelligence operations can get dirty. It's all a matter of how important the intelligence is. The British attitude is that, if you need to do this, do it right. So Britain does have agents with a "license to kill" and, more importantly, laws protecting these men and women from any later prosecution for dirty deeds they were asked to do for Queen and Country. But in the United States, the CIA was held to a higher moral standard, and still expected to get the job done. This approach did not work.

Despite all the post-911 talk about "more aggressive intelligence operations" to prevent more attacks, the atmosphere inside the CIA discouraged any such thing. All this was largely the result of the CIA being put into a sort of semi-hibernation in the late 1970s. This was an aftereffect of the Church Committee, an investigative operation sponsored by Congress, that sought to reform the CIA. The reforms were mainly about eliminating CIA spying inside the United States, and doing stuff for the president that Congress did not approve of. There was also a desire to avoid any CIA connection with foreign unpleasantness (like using unsavory people as spies or informants). This led to a growing list of restrictions on what the CIA could do overseas, and at home.

Congress was out to make sure no future president (the CIA works for the president) could use the CIA as had been done during the Vietnam war, and before. The CIA interpreted this as "no more James Bond stuff," just use your spy satellites and write up your reports. The Church Committee insured that the CIA became a much less interesting place to work. A lot of the most capable people got out over the next two decades. Recruiting became difficult. Word got around that the daring need not apply.

But after September 11, 2001, the CIA was tossed a huge pile of money and told to staff up and get going. The Church Committee restrictions were largely, if not completely, discarded. Recruiting efforts were greatly expanded, and since September 11, 2001, several hundred thousand applications were received. The agency has had a hard time keeping up with that.

This created some interesting personnel problems, especially in the operations division (the people who go to foreign countries and, well, sometimes do James Bond stuff.) There were few people left in the agency that remembered how to do field ops the old school way. By late 2001, many recently retired field ops guys were being lured back to active duty. You now had a situation where the field ops population was like a cross between a college fraternity and retirement community. There are few people in the middle, age and experience wise. It's almost as bad in the analysis division (where the data is studied and reports prepared.)

The area of the CIA that has flourished in the last three decades has been the geek side of things. These folks were always flush, thanks to a Congress that felt safer with spy satellites, than with spies on the ground. But those days are over. Much of the new technology is going to the analysts (better computerized tools to dig quickly through information) and the field operatives (like Predator UAVs, at four million bucks each.) A lot of money is going into training (learning Arabic, Pushto, Farsi and Dari are encouraged, and sometimes demanded) and the use of consultants (often former CIA operatives who would not come back full time.)

But after a few years, the Church Committee atmosphere returned. The major issue was the use of torture to extract information from terrorist suspects. It suddenly became the conventional wisdom that torture didn't work. This was absurd, as a cursory glance at the history of World War II, and every war before or since, would reveal. Pundits pointed out that tortured people will tell you anything. Again, this displayed an amazing ignorance of intelligence tradecraft. While some people will tell you anything when tortured, a lot of people will also provide useful information that can be double checked. It's not like the movies, where everything depends on the painful pronouncements of one tortured individual. The reality was that using "vigorous interrogation" brought forth much useful information, always has, and always will. Intelligence is all about putting together lots of small pieces. That's why U.S. operatives are taught how to resist torture. Yes, there are individuals who can outsmart, or outlast, torture. But they are always a minority. It's a war of numbers, and something that doesn't make for exciting soundbites.

The new Church Committee like restrictions outlawed things like the use of contractors for interrogations (even if there were no other source of manpower to do the job in time), the use of foreign nations to provide the "vigorous interrogation", the detention of foreigners without giving them access to the U.S. criminal justice system, and many more items that most CIA officials know, from their own experience, will only get Americans killed.

So how does the United States gather needed intelligence? It does it in secret (from many in Congress and, most of all, the media). The other intelligence agencies, like the DIA (Defense Intelligence Agency) are being allowed to run with these operations. Of course, everyone understands that they could still be hung out to dry down the road. But there are more bosses in the DIA (compared to the CIA) that are willing to back up their operatives (some of whom will get screwed down the road, which is accepted as a risk of the job). Another solution is to outsource many intel operations. The men and women who work for contractors are working without a net (of full U.S. government backing, both diplomatically and militarily). Not all these operatives are even American, but they will do it for a combination of money, adventure, personal beliefs and some assurances that America will provide some support if things get nasty (if only to retrieve the information the agents have obtained.)

The CIA lost its soul, it's heart, and most of its guts, in the late 1970s. Lots of brains are left, with big budgets to buy all manner of neat technology. But the bosses live fear of grandstanding politicians and headline hungry journalists. While the British, the Israelis, and most other nations, have managed to capture and retain the ability to do street level intelligence, the CIA has not. It now serves mainly to draw fire, while other organizations get the job done.

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bpb1979       9/8/2008 10:00:36 AM
Why, there's certainly no unfair bias in favor of DoD's intelligence agencies in THIS post!! :)
 
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warpig       9/8/2008 10:38:38 AM
You're right, there's no **unfair** bias in it at all.
 
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FJV       9/8/2008 12:46:36 PM
I am still not convinced whether torture is effective in extracting information. I am convinced however that methods that while not actually torture are also not completely innocent are effective. For instance sleep deprivation makes it harder for someone who is interrogated to keep his lies consistent. The same with not allowing the interrogated person to urinate makes it also harder to concentrate to keep his lies consistent. Those techniques I consider being in the "grey"area, though exaggeration in the use of these techniques can turn it into torture.
 
As for clear cases torture like electrocuting someone's balls, all the reassurances I read that torture does work is based on hearsay.
 
And the history of WW2 reveals that Hitler killed off his best general (Rommel) based on evidence obtained by that kind of torture, so in my opinion history doesn't neccesarily prove that torture "works".
 
As for being ignorance on intelligence matters: Read the man in the snow white cell from the CIA website, where the CIA ITSELF says:
 
"What conclusions can we draw about the efficacy and appropriateness of the interrogation techniques used by the South Vietnamese and the Americans in the Tai case? While the South Vietnamese use of torture did result (eventually) in Tai's admission of his true identity, it did not provide any other usable information. The South Vietnamese played the key role ining Tai's cover story, but it was their investigation and analysis that put the pieces together to make a solid and incontrovertible identification of Tai, not their use of torture, that scored this success crack. A sensitive, adept line of questioning that confronted Tai with this evidence and offered him a deal--like the offer by his torturers to exchange admission of his identity for consideration in a notional prisoner exchange--would almost certainly have achieved the same result. Without doubt, the South Vietnamese torture gave Tai the incentive for the limited cooperation he gave to his American interrogators, but it was the skillful questions and psychological ploys of the Americans, and not any physical infliction of pain, that produced the only useful (albeit limited) information that Tai ever provided."
 
Or maybe these 15 intell officers do not have relevant experience eh?:
 
If you are going to throw away 20 years of human rights foreign policy, you have to come up with something better than this IMHO.
 
PS
There are other reasons why torture is used where torture does work<
 
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Julius II       9/8/2008 3:07:43 PM
 
The issue is not whether torture works.  It does, which is why everyone from the Romans to the Spanish Inquisition to the KGB has used torture to get information.  The real issue for Americans is our Constitution that prohibits "cruel and unusual" punishment.   It is unAmerican to torture no matter how important the information is or how many lives are lost or saved.  Once you start going down this road, it is hard to turn back, and the road leads to tyranny. 
 
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Hannibal    Jason Bourne   9/8/2008 8:05:41 PM
If you've seen the Bourne movies that's how we should do it. And there is no reason why we can't keep a moral backbone  and still do what needs to be done. There is nothing wrong with blasting the bad guys.
 
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jak267       9/9/2008 12:44:44 AM
For anyone who "isn't convinced that torture works" - give me an hour alone with you.
 
But we can't defeat the enemies over there until we eliminate the enemies here.

 
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chas1    Unrealistic   9/9/2008 9:35:54 AM
Well, if you are serious about that, then I guess you won't change your mind if the lives involved are yours, and those of your friends and family. For myself, I have grown to love George Orwell's observation: "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
 
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FJV    Bah humbug    9/9/2008 12:45:36 PM
I guess most of you really don't wanna admit that deep down the reason why you support torture, is because they want the bastard to suffer. And let's be honest there aren't many bigger bastards than terrorists and to make others think twice of messing with me. Deep down that would be the real motivation for me, not any false illusions about the effectiveness of obtaining good objective information. I don't use false excuses to make feelings of vengeance I may have look more noble.
 
Oh and all those people who say I don't know what I'm talking about:
Let's see, on the one hand I post 2 references:
- Written by people who are/were actually in the intelligence community.
- Written by people who have actually interrogated people for real.
On the other hand we have :
- A person who cites the Spanish inquisition as an historic example of extracting reliable information out of persons.
  I guess all those women burned at the stake really were witches flying on broomhandles.
- A person citing a movie for using terror. Yeah and outrunning explosions is really possible, for real.
- A person wanting "An hour alone with me". Is there some weird double entendre going on here?
- A person having the bad taste to drag my family into the discussion.
- All people who are basically anonimous to me and show no sign of having interrogated people or show to have worked in
  intelligence. 

Now which source do I believe, the sites with the name of the persons in clear view complete with a small resume of their relevant experience, or some anonimous person on the internet, who I know nothing about.
 
As for the case of my family being involved 2 points:
"Several problems here. First, I'll mention in passing that, as Richard Comerford pointed out, dragging an opponent's family into the scenario is a cheap, honorless ploy to begin with. Second, succumbing to temptation does not equal justification. There is nothing out of place about condemning something that would indeed be a great temptation if the one condemning it found themselves in the situation. Just as one can reasonably assert that adultery is wrong knowing full well that an attractive member of the opposite sex could easily cause them to fall, so (allowing such a fantastic scenario) one could insist on the wrongness of torture but be sorely tempted and likely cave into torturing those threatening their family. That's just plain ol' humility. They would have limited responsibilty for their actions because of the extreme duress in such a case, but wrong it remains." or ineffective I might add
 
- If the terrorists are even amateurs about their OPSEC, the the moment someone gets caught immediate countermeasures are taken that were prepared beforehand. This means that any information I will get will be too late even if it is accurate and my family very likely will be toast. One of the immediate countermeasures would likely be to kill my family and make a fast getaway. Unfortunately real life can suck big time.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Dwye       9/9/2008 6:24:51 PM

I am still not convinced whether torture is effective in extracting information. I am convinced however that methods that while not actually torture are also not completely innocent are effective.

It depends on your definitions.  Amnesty International considers it torture to merely threaten to torture a subject, even as a lie (to be fair, that was step one in questioning by the Inquisition, and worked quite often, as with Galileo).

As for clear cases torture like electrocuting someone's balls, all the reassurances I read that torture does work is based on hearsay.
This is torture for fun, which doesn't get useful info.  Agreed, this is counterproductive, as well as wrong.

And the history of WW2 reveals that Hitler killed off his best general (Rommel) based on evidence obtained by that kind of torture, so in my opinion history doesn't neccesarily prove that torture "works".

Except that Rommel *was* guilty of plotting to assassinate Hitler, so the torture worked.  Granted, by that point, the best German tactic would have been to kill the Fuehrer, but Adolf and the SS were hardly likely to care.
 
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Zhang Fei       9/9/2008 8:00:41 PM
I guess most of you really don't wanna admit that deep down the reason why you support torture, is because they want the bastard to suffer.
 
Actually, deep down inside, I just want more of our guys to survive. Heck, if I wanted these guys to suffer, I'd recommend drawing and quartering, not torture. The fact is that every one of our guys in enemy custody has given up important technical intelligence in response to torture. Military interrogators aren't looking for confessions - they're looking for answers to questions posed by various services - answers to which there are plausible and implausible answers; answers that will require physical corroboration or corroboration by other prisoners being questioned separately by different interrogators. Prisoners who say anything will simply to throw interrogators off-track will simply be tortured further either they give up the pieces of information required or the interrogator recognizes that the prisoner has no more useful information left to provide.
 
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