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The Cheonan Conspiracy
   Next Article → LOGISTICS: No Evil Foreigners Required
July 27, 2010: South Korean and American conspiracy theory enthusiasts have persuaded the mass media to report accusations that the South Korean warship sunk by a North Korean torpedo four months ago, was sunk by some other means. One unlikely theory is that the warship ran aground, while others suggest a rogue naval mine or a sinister plot by the South Korean government to sink its own ship and blame it on the North Koreans. These conspiracy theories are quite popular, with about 20 percent of South Koreans believing this one. Meanwhile, many people believing that gangsters (or the CIA or whatever) killed president John Kennedy, that the CIA invented AIDS and that the United States destroyed the World Trade Center with explosives on September 11, 2001.

Back in the real world, it was only two months ago that South Korea confirmed that a North Korean torpedo sank the South Korean corvette Cheonan (and killed 46 of its crew) in March. North Korea denies any culpability, but the evidence against North Korea was pretty overwhelming. Once the entire ship (which broke in two after the explosion) was recovered, it was only a matter of time before the cause of the sinking was determined. That's because a lot of very smart people, made a big effort, to reconstruct the incident.

On April 15th the aft part of the warship Cheonan was recovered, and returned to land for closer examination. The international (America, Britain, Sweden and Australia sent shipwreck experts) investigation team needed about a month to thoroughly examine the wreckage and conclude what, and who, destroyed the ship. The 74 technical experts put the Cheonan back together, just as aircraft crash investigators do, and it was pretty clear that the ship had been hit by a torpedo. That was confirmed by the discovery of torpedo fragments (like the torpedo propeller and parts of the torpedo engine, all located at the rear of the torpedo, and most likely to survive). South Korea had captured North Korean torpedoes in the last decade, and was able to match the torpedo fragments found in and around the Cheonan, with those found in disassembled North Korean torpedoes. Some of the torpedo parts found near the Cheonan also had identical Korean alphabet notations on them (compared to the captured torpedo.) The surviving South Korean sailors were also interviewed, and their recollections were consistent with a torpedo explosion.

All this evidence is either denied or explained away by conspiracy theorists. It's what they do. And on a slow news day, mass media outlets will pick up the story and run with it. It's what they do.

 

 

Next Article → LOGISTICS: No Evil Foreigners Required
  

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LetsTry Reason    "Supposedly less so enlightened" Korean people   7/27/2010 9:25:29 PM

This is a remarkable story of people ? the governed(although they are in theory supposed to be the actual governor in democracy), not their government ? making difference in the world.


1. Compare and contrast.

"More enlightened" American people, Congress and media; Bush; WMD; War (and huge suffering), 

(https://gmx.com/dereferrer/?target=http%3A%2F%2Fwhitehouser.com%2Fwar%2FCIA-confirms-Bush-WMD-lie)

and,

"Supposedly less so enlightened" Korean people; Korean President Lee; Cheonan; prevention of War (so far).

(I am including among 'the Korean people' the Korean-Americans.)


2. Also remarkable is that the "inside" Korean people braved the government prosecution.

Caveat: Under the current South Korean regime, South Korean citizens can be sued for defamation by their own government officials, and defamation in South Korea is a crime (as well as a civil offense) prosecuted by the government's own centrally-controlled national prosecutors who selectively choose or choose not whom to prosecute.

Recently, Shin Sang-chul, "an expert placed on the JIG [Joint Investigation Group] by the opposition party," got (criminally) sued for defamation by a government official for expressing disagreement over the current South Korean regime's version of the Cheonan Incident.


3. A list of early English publications on Questions on the Cheonan Incident and the Power of South Korean Netizens can be found at https://gmx.com/dereferrer/?target=http%3A%2F%2Fkorea.true.ws (by LetsTry Reason).

Also, look at:  https://gmx.com/dereferrer/?target=http%3A%2F%2Fnature.com%2Fnews%2F2010%2F080710%2Ffull%2Fnews.2010.343.html;

"Five reasons why the the JIG's 5-page statement cannot be considered scientific and objective, nor ... 'international'" https://gmx.com/dereferrer/?target=http%3A%2F%2Fjapanfocus.org%2F-JOHN-MCGLYNN%2F3372;

https://gmx.com/dereferrer/?target=http%3A%2F%2Fwillyloman.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F06%2F30%2Fpcc-772-cheonan-south-korean-government-admits-the-deception-and-then-lies-about-it%2F;

F" target="_blank">F" target="_blank">https://gmx.com/dereferrer/?target=http%3A%2F%2F>


4. Compare and contrast.

911; Al-Qaida; We did it(, was not wrong, not sorry about it and we will do it again).

Cheonan; North Korea; We didn't do it (therefore, presumably, was wrong, sorry about it and we will not do it).

Crime and punishment. If we are taking consequentialist moral philosophy, and if the utilitarian utility of punishment is to prevent future crime, then punishment serves little or no purpose (maybe to others but not)to North Korea who says 'We didn't do it,' because either (a) the North didn't do it, therefore the punishment will be outrageous injustice, 

or (b) the North did do it, but 'We didn't do it' basically implies 'We will not do it.'
(This particular 'it' hardly gives the North any payoff.)


5. Representative democracy is not pure democracy. (Pure)Direct democracy is now (or becoming) possible, through recent developments in computer science and technology, making private Internet-voting, democratic online discussions and cheap instantaneous micro referendum possible. 

The science (computer

 
Quote    Reply

YidFunDorum    @LetsTryReason   7/28/2010 12:44:47 AM
You're kind of a nut, aren't you?
 
Quote    Reply

RtWingCon    Then again,,,   7/28/2010 12:51:48 AM
Maybe its as simple as the N.Korean leadership is crazier than islamic extremists(that says alot). All the logic in the world doesn't give NK an ounce of credibility in ANY situation, thus could never be believed. Given the NK's constant saber rattling and the South's appeasement tones, doesn't make any sense the South would fabricate or worse as to what took place.
 
As for pure democracy, only works in very small groups, not in governments. Representive Democracy rules because it works. Imagine millions of people voting on every issue instead of their Rep, the nation would collapse. Why? Because people would vote themselves every social privledge and welfare available(this is the operating procedure of the Dem party here in USA-promise everything). If Representive Democracy doesn't work who do you blame? Blame the ignorant masses who voted them in, you really want these same ignorant masses to vote directly on every issue? That's insane.
 
Peace prize is awarded by the dumbasses in Norway(Gore and Obama? really?), all other prizes are by sweden. Both are hypocritical surrender monkeys.
 
Quote    Reply

LetsTry Reason       7/28/2010 2:22:03 PM

To the "outside" world intellectuals who don't read Korean,

I will clarify it by modifying the sentence as:
5. Representative democracy is not pure democracy. (Pure)Direct democracy of a nation-size is now (or becoming) possible, through recent developments in computer science and technology, making private Internet-voting, democratic online discussions, cheap instantaneous micro referendum and the freedom of choice to vote directly on an issue or use an agent possible.


The key point is it's in the quotes, i.e., the "Nobel" Peace Prize from Sweden (because people generally associate Nobel with Sweden) and not the Nobel Peace Prize from Norway.
I will change it without the quotes to (although people might say 'Huh? Norway?'):
I take this honor of hereby formally asking the folks in Norway to consider awarding a Nobel Peace Prize ...


Re-print (please go ahead and click these links):
3. A list of early English publications on Questions on the Cheonan Incident and the Power of South Korean Netizens can be found at http://korea.true.ws/ (by LetsTry Reason).
Also, look at: "Five reasons why the the JIG's 5-page statement cannot be considered scientific and objective, nor ... 'international'" http://japanfocus.org/-JOHN-MCGLYNN/3372;
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/pcc-772-cheonan-south-korean-government-admits-the-deception-and-then-lies-about-it/;
http://nature.com/news/2010/080710/full/news.2010.343.html;
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-korea-torpedo-20100724,0,4196801,full.story

1. Compare and contrast.
"More enlightened" American people, Congress and media; Bush; WMD; War (and huge suffering),
(http://whitehouser.com/war/CIA-confirms-Bush-WMD-lie)

 
Quote    Reply

LetsTry Reason       7/28/2010 2:32:42 PM

Try again at the re-print.

Re-print (please go ahead and click these links):
3. A list of early English publications on Questions on the Cheonan Incident and the Power of South Korean Netizens can be found at korea.true.ws (by LetsTry Reason).
Also, look at: "Five reasons why the the JIG's 5-page statement cannot be considered scientific and objective, nor ... 'international'" japanfocus.org/-JOHN-MCGLYNN/3372;
willyloman.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/pcc-772-cheonan-south-korean-government-admits-the-deception-and-then-lies-about-it/;
nature.com/news/2010/080710/full/news.2010.343.html;
latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-korea-torpedo-20100724,0,4196801,full.story


1. Compare and contrast.
"More enlightened" American people, Congress and media; Bush; WMD; War (and huge suffering),
(whitehouser.com/war/CIA-confirms-Bush-WMD-lie)

 

 
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BB45    I second that   7/28/2010 2:50:15 PM
I second YidFunDorum,... you're kind of a nut aren't you?   And RtWingCon is right about direct democracy... and you are wrong to trust the Internet for secure voting.  You say "recent developments in computer science and technology" will allow direct democracy... you obviously know very little about secure (and unsecure) systems.  
 
Quote    Reply

Hamilcar    I usually ignore a plant.   7/28/2010 3:08:01 PM
but you are better than most, bandit. Welcome to the forum, Let's Try Reason.
 
Hamilcar. 
 
Quote    Reply

DavidE    I third that   8/1/2010 1:49:14 AM
If anyone still thinks that appeasing, or otherwise looking weak, to an aggressive
dictator out for a land grab is necessarily the most peaceful course of action, they
should ask Edvard Benes, or for that matter, Park Chun Hee.  And if anyone still
thinks that the Nobel Peace Prize Committee is good at finding peaceful people,
they should take a look at some of the winners, and some of the nominees (Adolph
Hitler was one) -- if you still want it, you'll be accepting
a very degraded currency.  

The article didn't say anything about self-delusion in American politics, or claim that
Americans are more enlightened, and we are not.  But perhaps because we are not so close to the 
action, we can definitely see what some in Korea don't (but not the ones who lived
through the Korean war), that North Korea is run by a highly aggressive dictator whose worst
impulses and outrages are provoked by shows of weakness, not strength, and that the way to
peace in this situation is to maintain a robust deterrent, and not to fold when provoked.  If North Korea
doesn't pay a price for this action, you can expect more like it, to be followed by extortion demands.

 
 
Quote    Reply