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German Tanks And Infantry Attack In The East

July 27, 2009: Apparently as a result of Germany changing its ROE (Rules of Engagement) for its troops in Afghanistan earlier this month, German troops in northern Afghanistan have been involved in an offensive operation against the Taliban. This is the first time since 1945 that regular German army troops have been advancing on an enemy with tanks and infantry.

German troops have fired in self-defense in the past (mainly on peacekeeping missions, but also in Afghanistan), but the only offensive combat has been by commando units. And this did not take place until 2002, in Afghanistan. The German commandos continued to operate there, but under increasing political pressure back home to, well, stop fighting. Last year, Germany pulled its commandos out of Afghanistan. The KSK commandos have been there for most of the last seven years. Many Germans, especially leftist politicians and journalists, have not been happy with that. This has resulted in several unflattering, and largely inaccurate, articles about the KSK in the German media. There was also an investigation of several KSK men, accused of kicking an Afghan prisoner. While the KSK were allowed to fight, they also operated under an increasing number of restrictions. Eventually, they could not fire at the enemy unless first fired upon. This led to at least one senior Taliban leader getting away from the KSK. The fleeing Taliban honcho was not firing at the pursuing KSK, so the commandos could not take him down.

While Germans have really gotten into the guilt thing since World War II, the Japanese like to portray themselves as victims (Pearl Harbor and over a decade of atrocities in China notwithstanding). Since the end of the Cold War, many Germans have adopted the Japanese attitude towards World War II, and now accuse the U.S. and Britain of committing war crimes for bombing German cities during the war. There have been calls for an apology, and perhaps even reparations.

Meanwhile, until quite recently, the 3,400 German troops in Afghanistan were not allowed to go looking for a fight, even though they were increasingly getting attacked by the Taliban, or whoever the bad guy was where the German troops were. That was because the Afghans were becoming aware of the German ROE, and taking advantage of it. But with five German soldiers killed in Afghanistan so far this year, compared to three for all of last year, the ROE was changed. German soldiers may now attack hostile forces, without waiting to be fired on first. The previous ROE also stipulated that German troops had to let the enemy go if the German troops were no longer being fired on. That no longer applies either.

While many Germans oppose the presence of their troops in Afghanistan, the restrictive ROEs had become a growing embarrassment. The thousands of German soldiers who had served in Afghanistan continued to complain about it when they returned home. And then there the growing number of soldiers coming back suffering from PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder). Last year, 245 German soldiers, who had served in war zones (including Afghanistan), were classified as PTSD casualties. The year before, there were only 83 PTSD casualties. The restrictive ORE  caused stress. Just the thought of it can be stressful. In the last three years, some 62,000 German troops have been stationed in combat (or peacekeeping) zones, where they can be exposed to traumatic events, the most traumatic one being not allowed to fight back.

The actual wording of the new ROE isn't that different, in order to make the changes more politically palatable at home. But the commanders in Afghanistan have been told that they can do whatever they need to do to accomplish their peacekeeping mission, and safeguard their own troops. That no longer includes trying to avoid contact with the enemy.

 

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Nasty German Idiot       7/27/2009 8:12:52 AM
While Germans have really gotten into the guilt thing since World War II, the Japanese like to portray themselves as victims (Pearl Harbor and over a decade of atrocities in China notwithstanding). Since the end of the Cold War, many Germans have adopted the Japanese attitude towards World War II, and now accuse the U.S. and Britain of committing war crimes for bombing German cities during the war. There have been calls for an apology, and perhaps even reparations.
______________________________________________________________________________________________
 
I would love to have a reference or footnote to see where the author has gotten that from !   
Especially: "many Germans have adopted the Japanese attitude towards World War 2" -  yeah, and that embodied itself in building a Holocaust Memorial in sight of the Reichstag !!!   
What is indeed true is that many Germans today see the particular bombing of Dresden as a Warcrime. (However there is a controversial debate even over this incident, and the general Allied Air-War is not seen as a War crime by any serious German Historian, Politician or even leftist intellectual. (Leftists in this case more often make the argue that the Air-Campaign was necessary while Historians often point out that it mostly had psychologic effects on the Population, rather than hurting the German War-Machine itself.(statistics show indeed that the highest production output of War Material was reached in middle 1944) 
 
Nobody  is calling for reperations (maybe some Neo-Nazi groups, which are unable to pass the 3% mark and get even a single seat in local Parliaments - and thus dont have a voice at all)  for the Air-bombing.
 
I may also remark that until reunification there was no public debate in Germany concerning Allied Warcrimes, which nobody will denie also happened  or do you ? 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Nasty German Idiot       7/27/2009 8:50:20 AM
PS: An overview over the ROE change:
 
The card issued to every soldier in theatre which includes the RoE has been changed by the MOD.
The details reported by the Tagresspiegel newspaper sound promising: All the idiotic hindrances seem to have been eradicated:
1. Pursuit of (fleeing) armed foes is now possible - including shooting them
2. The use of force is not restricted to self defense anymore but solely depends of what is necessary for the success of the ISAF mission
3. The rules concerning the need to "hail/warn" possible talibs before engaging haven been redressed (a sniper or a mortar would often be out of shouting range anyway)
 
link
 
pics from yesterday, Kunduz region:
 
 
notice the newly arrived MG3 on FWL100 on the Dingo. 


 

 
 
 
 
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vhmbnm    German ROE   7/27/2009 9:40:42 AM
The German people should not be considered allies of the US. The German soldiers appear to be professional and want in the fight. These socialist whiners have been thwarting the US in keeping the free world free since the 60's. They were the USSR's biggest trading partners when the Communist gulag fell in '89. They are currently one of Iran's biggest trading partners also. The NATO Europeans are also the biggest tourism benefit for the Castro regime thereby keeping that corrupt enterprise propped up. They constantly put their economic/business interests above "allied" interests. Looks like the US will continue to do the heavy lifting in the War on Terror just like we did during the Cold War. Socialism + guilt are not suitable on the world stage where preserving freedom is concerned.
 
Quote    Reply

Nasty German Idiot       7/27/2009 9:56:38 AM

The German people should not be considered allies of the US. The German soldiers appear to be professional and want in the fight. These socialist whiners have been thwarting the US in keeping the free world free since the 60's. They were the USSR's biggest trading partners when the Communist gulag fell in '89. They are currently one of Iran's biggest trading partners also. The NATO Europeans are also the biggest tourism benefit for the Castro regime thereby keeping that corrupt enterprise propped up. They constantly put their economic/business interests above "allied" interests. Looks like the US will continue to do the heavy lifting in the War on Terror just like we did during the Cold War. Socialism + guilt are not suitable on the world stage where preserving freedom is concerned.
The first part of your comment seems to resemble your personality and writing disorder, the second part is just unworthy to comment. 
 
Just a little hint for you:  The cold war frontline ran directly through Germany, although you seem to be as uneducated in the field of geography as you are on history. 
 
PS: You got me with your "travelling to Cuba" rant ^^  (yes I have also been there !  Varadero and Havanna ! - I also met US citizens from Florida that came over by boat - had a nice chat with them when buying Cohibas directly from the factory. You could easily spot they were American because they first one they said when coming into the shop was yelling out "What is your most expensive cigarr" to the shopowner - no European let alone German would act that way ^^ )   
 
Quote    Reply

Headlock       7/27/2009 11:35:22 AM
"While Germans have really gotten into the guilt thing since World War II, the Japanese like to portray themselves as victims (Pearl Harbor and over a decade of atrocities in China notwithstanding). Since the end of the Cold War, many Germans have adopted the Japanese attitude towards World War II, and now accuse the U.S. and Britain of committing war crimes for bombing German cities during the war. There have been calls for an apology, and perhaps even reparations."

The above paragraph is both irrelevant to the article (just how does revisionist history affect ROE??) and inaccurate in its own right. It complete destroys the credibility of the author, by attempting to tie academic spats in central european min-century history  to the military operations of German forces in the 21st century.


This kind of stupid writing constantly undermines Strategy Pages credibility. Just when I think things are gettign more professional along comes a pointless, emotion-based, misplaced comment such as this.

C'mon guys! You can do better than this!

HDK 

 
  


 
Quote    Reply

Headlock       7/27/2009 11:57:31 AM
Also, hes ignorant of terminology:
The Gulag was a system of prisons and labour camps spread across the Eurasain continent.

The Berlin Wall is what came down in '89, thereby undermining the essentially vassalage system in place in Eastern Europe between the USSR and its conquered states. But it was 2 years later, in 1991, that the USSR finally came undone. Get your facts right. Especially the basic ones.

And:
While far more europeans visit Cuba than US citizens, hundreds of thousands of CANADIANS also visit Cuba- are they also "helping to prop up" Castro? I guess so! But wait- they're in NATO!! OMG!!!!  Traitors in our midst!! 

His facts are wrong, his analysis is wrong and his opinions are utterly without merit. 

 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Beazz       7/27/2009 2:35:39 PM

The German people should not be considered allies of the US. The German soldiers appear to be professional and want in the fight. These socialist whiners have been thwarting the US in keeping the free world free since the 60's. They were the USSR's biggest trading partners when the Communist gulag fell in '89. They are currently one of Iran's biggest trading partners also. The NATO Europeans are also the biggest tourism benefit for the Castro regime thereby keeping that corrupt enterprise propped up. They constantly put their economic/business interests above "allied" interests. Looks like the US will continue to do the heavy lifting in the War on Terror just like we did during the Cold War. Socialism + guilt are not suitable on the world stage where preserving freedom is concerned.

While I agree that the US does do all the heavy lifting in the war department, I do not agree with the Cuba statement. I am an American and I think our policy towards Cuba is completely stupid. We do business with the likes of China and Russia, just to name a couple, and they are far worse then Cuba could ever dream of being. Not to mention, Cuba is our neighbor and just a stones throw away. The fact that Americans cannot freely go there to visit is just stupid. All we have done is make a nation that is our neighbor a sub 3rd world nation by our silly embargo and hurt the average citizens there. It is far past time to lift our silly embargo and open Cuba up for all of us to enjoy for a vacation spot that it once was!!! Why ANY other nation would even consider adhering to this idiotic stance we have against Cuba is beyond me. If I were any other nation, on the Cuba matter I'd simply tell the USA to go get bent. We are and have been actiing like a bunch of 3 year olds when it comes to Cuba for FAR to long and it far past time to stop it.
Beazz
 
Quote    Reply

maruben    Japan   7/27/2009 5:58:35 PM
What is indeed true is that many Germans today see the particular bombing of Dresden Tokyo, Hiroshima or Nagasaki as a Warcrime. (However there is a controversial debate even over this incident, and the general Allied Air-War is not seen as a War crime by any serious German Japanese Historian, Politician or even leftist intellectual. (Leftists in this case more often make the argue that the Air-Campaign was necessary while Historians often point out that it mostly had psychologic effects on the Population, rather than hurting the German War-Machine itself.(statistics show indeed that the highest production output of War Material was reached in middle 1944) 
 
Nobody is calling for reperations (maybe some Neo-Nazi Right-Wing groups, which are unable to pass the 3% mark and get even a single seat in local Parliaments - and thus dont have a voice at all)  for the Air-bombing. 
 
The almost the same can be said about Japan.
 
Quote    Reply

smitty237       7/28/2009 4:19:26 AM
You guys need to lighten up a little.  Strategy Page is not a journalism site.  Anyone that has read James Dunnigan or Austin Bay's books know that these guys are Americans and American-centric in their world view.  They also tend to be quite conservative, so it is unrealistic to expect them to be totally objective and unbiased.  You may disagree with their point of view at times, but that doesn't make this a bad site.  They put their position out there and then let the discussion go from there.  You can disagree with the points that the put out there, but it seems a little immature to trash the site because you disagree with one sentence in a post.  If you disagree with a point explain why you disagree but provide some supporting evidence as to why it is wrong. 
 
As far as the change of the German Army's ROE goes, I'm glad to see it, but fear the law of unintended consequences.  This "awakening" of the German military is a positive thing because it shows that the German military is final moving past the guilt that has been imposed upon it over the last sixty years and is willing to fight again.  This guilt has prevented the modern German military man from living up to his potential.  The War in Afghanistan has transformed military defense policy to the point where they are willing to start fighting back.  I have to wonder if Germany has realized that with Barack Obama as President they can no longer count upon the United States to continue to do the heavy lifting in the War on Terror.  In the event of a future state sponsored terrorist attack the Germans may be forced to retaliate on their own, and in order to do so they have to have the willingness and ability to conduct offensive operations.
 
The downside is the specter of a Germany with a large, aggressive military.  The biggest thing that the Russians, French, Dutch, Poles, and Czechs have in common is that they all fear a truculent Germany.  Germany's aversion to war has done more to disarm Germany than any treaty could have, but once that reluctance to fight is removed, what happens next? 
 
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Nasty German Idiot       8/1/2009 10:04:45 AM
Update 1. August:
 
Today I read that a large group of Taliban has been spotted (around 150 fighters) reoccupying the Southern Part of Char Darrah.  They came on motorbikes and trucks, and the 300 Afghan soldiers left to defend the just cleared region seem to have been unable to stop them or were too few to control the large Area. 
 
Quote    Reply

Nasty German Idiot       8/1/2009 10:29:56 AM

Update 1. August:

 

Today I read that a large group of Taliban has been spotted (around 150 fighters) reoccupying the Southern Part of Char Darrah.  They came on motorbikes and trucks, and the 300 Afghan soldiers left to defend the just cleared region seem to have been unable to stop them or were too few to control the large Area. 

New update ...  Coaliton seem to have found the track of the Taliban ... 

August 01, 2009 15:11 PM

Taliban Commander Detained In N. Afghanistan

KABUL, Aug 1 (Bernama) -- Afghan Security forces captured Taliban key commander in Kunduz province north of Afghanistan, a local official said Saturday.

"German troops with the cooperation of national security forces arrested Taliban key commander Qari Abdul Wadoud from Qarakator village of Imam Sahib district Friday," Juma Khan, the governor of Imam Sahib, told China's Xinhua news agency.

The detained Taliban commander, according to the official, was commanding some 100 militants and had been involved in series of anti-government activities.

He also added that the arrested Taliban commander would be shown to media at proper time.

Parts of Kunduz have been the scene of Taliban activities over the past couple of months as some 300 German troops and Afghan security forces launched operation dubbed Eagle to clear Taliban militants last week.

XXXttp://www.bernama.com/bernama/v5/newsworld.php?id=429521
 
 
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