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Subject: Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!!
GotGavin?    6/9/2004 5:15:06 PM
First posting....

I know (or think I know) the pros & cons of recoilless rifles. The main logistical con: the perforated shell casing, i.e. you can't use a standard 105 mm howitzer shell in a 105 mm RR, so more supply issues. In the spirit of the new AMOS mortar & older Russina 120 mm SP mortar/howitzer artillery, could you fire a mortar round from recoilless-like smoothbore tube??? Make an 81 mm shoulder-fired weapon that uses the same ammo as the 81 mm mortar. I know, the Carl G is 84 mm, but think of logistics. Vary the charge to vary the range & recoil blast. It seems to me the shape of the mortar shell is better suited for recoilless fire than the perforated RR casings.

How about firing 120 mm mortar shells from 120 mm tank guns for urban warfare without shooting through 5 buildings (over-penetration).

Bring back the 106 RR firing 106 mm mortar rounds or make a new 105 mm mortar shell that fires from 106 mm mortars, 106 mm RR, 105 mm M1A1, and 105 mm howitzers. Turn those big guns into low powerurban-warfare demolition guns. The Russians did this a while ago, but use a longer range "special round" along with mortar rounds in their's. I say use standard mortar rounds and standard howitzer rounds in one gun system.

Simplify logistics for mortars/howitzers/shoulder-fired weapons.

The AMOS with indirect & DIRECT mortar fire facinates me (there are other, similar systems out there).

Am I missing something in the mortar or howitzer design that prevents this?? Could some good designing overcome any problems with firing, recoil, aiming, etc...?
 
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BR1GAND    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! - anit-armor Mortar?   6/9/2004 5:23:36 PM
Hmm I know you can use the mortar in the directly lay mode, how accurate it would be for anti-armor is another question. A mortar with a back blast... that seems like a real bad idea!
 
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GotGavin?    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! - anit-armor Mortar?   6/9/2004 5:35:03 PM
Backblast is always bad on some level, but think of the pros of the recoilless rilfe in terms of warhead size on target fired by one person. Not to mention the price tag compared to smart rockets. Iraq & Afganistan have shown the logisitics nightmare and price-tag for modern warfare. Why not save money in different ammo & transport costs if it doesn't endanger US troops. A little backblast from the back of an APC doesn't really matter. Just don't fire it from an enclosed building! AMOS has caused a lot of discussion about combo weapons. Mostly in turrets and always with that special direct fire ammo. ARMOR September-October 1995 page 17-22 Aren't mortar rounds really just really short-burning rockets, fins and all? Some precision guided, some not. Why not the same caliber fire them from muzzle-loaded tubes, breech-loaded tubes, shoulder tubes, howiters, and cannons. Sounds like easier logisitics to me...
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!!   6/9/2004 7:17:13 PM
>>Vary the charge to vary the range & recoil blast.<< If you're still talking about a shoulder fired weapon like the Goose Gun, I don't know that this would be really effective -- Private Snuffy would be having to recall what charge was loaded, then cross reference that with some kind of sight, adjust elevation, and then fire. Being 19, awake for three days prior to this, and obsessing about his girlfriend back home (or back at the brigade's FSB, this being a modern US army) until the bad guys' machineguns open up, he's probably going to be prone to forget what combination of variables are loaded and miss with the #1 round a good deal of the time. My broader question to this idea is to ask what developing and fielding this brings to the fight that just issuing Goose Guns doesn't. It does potentially streamline logistics, perhaps, I don't know that the streamlining warrants the effort when you could just issue Carl G's. And, er, no, I don't have Gavin. Having crewed an M113A3 for a time, I've earned the right to call it any number of things, but I don't see any point in insulting a dead general.
 
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B.Smitty    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! - anit-armor Mortar?   6/9/2004 9:17:18 PM
>>Aren't mortar rounds really just really short-burning rockets, fins and all?<< Umm, no. They're fin-stabilized projectiles. Their propellant has largely burnt up by the time they leave the barrel. (Unless, of course, you're talking about RAPs) We don't need the 106mm anymore. We have something like 100,000 TOW 2 rounds in storage, already bought'n paid for. We can convert a bunch of the BGM-71Es to the -71H Bunker Buster config and do well for quite some time.
 
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GotGavin?    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! - anit-armor Mortar?   6/10/2004 9:20:58 AM
Good point... I'm really thinking about the future direction of direct/indirecy fire. You know the missles vs shells debate. At the rate we're going, all of these vast ammo stocks may get used up faster than we think. I'm always thinking about how to maximize the efficiency of what's in the field. If some ammo were interchangable from shoulder weapons and various artillery pieces, then we'd need fewer logistics in the field. They seem to be the guys being attacked every day in Iraq. Supplies come by truck or helicopter, and both have been taking a pounding over there. Besides, I once heard someone say that the bullet (shell) is the only weapon that, once fired, will always go where it's aimed. Missles have a thousand ways of malfunctioning.....
 
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eon    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! - anit-armor Mortar?   6/10/2004 9:30:32 AM
Your idea sounds a lot like the old German "Puppchen" AT gun of WWII. It fired a bazooka-type round using ther same high/low pressure system we later used in the 40mm grenade launcher family (M79/M203/MK 19). About 20 years ago the British developed a breech-loaded mortar for turret mounting in an IFV (first FV 432 and then Warrior, if memory serves). it was advertised as having both direct and indirect-fire roles, but they pointed out that its main anti-tank role was "top-attack", delivering its bombs onto the relatively thin top armor of an MBT (the same technique as the underrated, ans nasty, Bofors BILL infantry ATGW). The direct-fire role was, as you suggested, intended for bunker-busting, the weapon being accurate enough to lob one right in a firing slit. I read about the thingie in an advert and article in the (now-sadly-defunct) magazine, "International Combat Arms". Anyone know if any army actually bought the beastie?.
 
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GotGavin?    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!!   6/10/2004 9:31:47 AM
Streamlining logisitics warrants everything. Logisitics come by truck or helicopter and I don't think anyone wants to be in either one in Iraq right now. With asymmetrical warfare and attacks happening all over the place, we're going to have to armor everything from the front line right back to the rear supprt vehicles, if that were financially possible. As far as ballistics, I think a $100 PalmPilot would do all of that for you. As far as the M113 Gavin, eveyones entitled to their opinion. It is what it is and nothing more. I'd rather be in an M113 than an uparmored Humvee over there. I don't think William T was insulted by his M-4 tank.
 
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GotGavin?    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! - anit-armor Mortar?   6/10/2004 9:48:48 AM
Not sure, but I LOVED THAT MAGAZINE!!! What ever happened to it? I've searched the web and it appears to be out of print. That was the magazine that got me interested in all of this stuff. The only mortar systems in the West that seems to have any promise as direct fire systems are the AMOS and the AMS II. The only thing I know of the Army tested was the rifled Dragon Fire I & II for the EFSS. What if you had a 105/6 mm breech-loaded mortar turrent and you're lobbing rounds off when an RPG team popped up. You could just load a 105 mm beehive round and engage them. SOunds like efficient use of ammo. You could package 81 mm mortar rounds into ready to fire tubes a la LAW. A soldier could fire the tube round or pull the 81 mm round out and drop it into the mortar. Dual use. A lot of possibilities, I think.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! - anit-armor Mortar?   6/10/2004 10:49:59 PM
I'm thinking I missed the part where this thing gets made recoilless. As someone noted, in a mortar, most of the boom occurs in the tube. A shoulder fired 81mm mortar bomb . . . ouch.
 
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GotGavin?    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! - anit-armor Mortar?   6/11/2004 4:12:18 PM
Recoilless like a recoilless rifle, vented at the back with backblast. That's part of my real question, would a mortar round, either with or without extra charges, have the power to fire like a perforated recoilless rifle round and have a favorable tragectory? The AMOS has the ability to fire directly, so why wouldn't a recoilless rifle-like mortar weapon do the same? Just a thought on simplifying infantry shoulder-fired weapons. There are so many of them now in about the same caliber range, but all with different launchers. Seems like a waste.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! - anit-armor Mortar?   6/11/2004 6:25:29 PM
I don't know that the two work interchangeably -- seems like if you optmized your round as a RR round, with the perforations, you'd not have an optimal mortar round, and vice versa. I could be wrong, but the mortar expends its energy in the tube like a rifle, etc, just at low(er) velocities and pressures, giving it the arcing trajectory, but it still have a pretty strong recoil impulse. If you make it recoilless, don't you lose loft on the trajectory?
 
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Sam    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -GotGavin   6/12/2004 12:52:08 AM
You have obviously never set the base plate on a mortar. No such beast as a "soft launch" mortar or arty piece. And what you need for one makes it useless for the other. Can't have a arty round without a rotating/obturating band (seals gasses in) and can't have a mortar round with one. How would a common round make for a lower logistics requirement? You havn't addressed the ROF issue. Without lowering the ROF you don't reduce how much is used. Arty will need the same amout of ammo resupply as will the infantry company. "I once heard someone say that the bullet (shell) is the only weapon that, once fired, will always go where it's aimed. Missles have a thousand ways of malfunctioning...." That person never dealt with copperhead, did he :) "What if you had a 105/6 mm breech-loaded mortar turrent and you're lobbing rounds off when an RPG team popped up. You could just load a 105 mm beehive round and engage them. SOunds like efficient use of ammo." No an efficent use of ammo would be to have your dismounts cap them with M-16/M-4s and SAWs. If you are "lobbing" rounds then it means you are supporting the maneuver element with indirect fire. We have a combined arms team. Use it. And quit listening to someone that claims over 20 years in service and is still a lieutenant. They kicked him out of the MC reserves for a reason. ID 10 Tango
 
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   RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -GotGavin   6/12/2004 1:45:57 PM
Hey Folks, It would be nice if it could be done. I am thinking along the lines of bunker buster with a morter with a open bottom that vents into the ground or behind you. It would require a rimfire ignition I think? can anybody think of anything I did not mention? Sincerely, Keith
 
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Sam    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -keit   6/12/2004 2:28:02 PM
Mortars are an area weapon. Will take luck and a few rounds to hit a bunker. Also will hit on top. Where bunkers normally have a couple layers of protection. Remember the purpose of bunkers is to protect your crew served from arty. Plenty of overhead protection "morter with a open bottom that vents into the ground or behind you." So what propels the round out of the tube? We have weapons that defeat bunkers has a AT and thermobaric round to boot. Comes with a 9mm spotting gun and can mount NVDs. Its the SMAW. Why develope a hybred mortar system to do its job?
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -GotGavin   6/12/2004 3:41:15 PM
>>And quit listening to someone that claims over 20 years in service and is still a lieutenant. They kicked him out of the MC reserves for a reason.<< He was USMCR? I had not realized -- I tend to zone out on most info on his site, but for some reason got the impression he was active duty. I had assumed he was kicked out, though, given his assortment of statements about the USMC . . .
 
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