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Subject: Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!!
GotGavin?    6/9/2004 5:15:06 PM
First posting....

I know (or think I know) the pros & cons of recoilless rifles. The main logistical con: the perforated shell casing, i.e. you can't use a standard 105 mm howitzer shell in a 105 mm RR, so more supply issues. In the spirit of the new AMOS mortar & older Russina 120 mm SP mortar/howitzer artillery, could you fire a mortar round from recoilless-like smoothbore tube??? Make an 81 mm shoulder-fired weapon that uses the same ammo as the 81 mm mortar. I know, the Carl G is 84 mm, but think of logistics. Vary the charge to vary the range & recoil blast. It seems to me the shape of the mortar shell is better suited for recoilless fire than the perforated RR casings.

How about firing 120 mm mortar shells from 120 mm tank guns for urban warfare without shooting through 5 buildings (over-penetration).

Bring back the 106 RR firing 106 mm mortar rounds or make a new 105 mm mortar shell that fires from 106 mm mortars, 106 mm RR, 105 mm M1A1, and 105 mm howitzers. Turn those big guns into low powerurban-warfare demolition guns. The Russians did this a while ago, but use a longer range "special round" along with mortar rounds in their's. I say use standard mortar rounds and standard howitzer rounds in one gun system.

Simplify logistics for mortars/howitzers/shoulder-fired weapons.

The AMOS with indirect & DIRECT mortar fire facinates me (there are other, similar systems out there).

Am I missing something in the mortar or howitzer design that prevents this?? Could some good designing overcome any problems with firing, recoil, aiming, etc...?
 
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   RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -keit   6/12/2004 10:55:48 PM
Hey Sam, I think his idea be simple! I am not qualified to speak dirrectly to it! I think the Brits used a rocket in the war of 1812 for indirect fire. It could just as easily been used in direct fire. I think this idea of having a recoiless weapon that can be used in both indirect and direct fire would indeed (as advertised) reduce the types of weapons on the to&e. for more you will need to field it in R&D an see if it would work! Sincerely, Keith
 
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Sam    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! Horse   6/12/2004 11:50:05 PM
He tries to give the impression that he was active duty. And was for less than a year. Kicked out during comm school for being a fat body. Then joined the reserves when in college. Completed OCS so he did have the title of officer in the Corps but was dropped at The Basic School. Never made it to the FMF. Became a USAR officer instead.
 
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Sam    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -keit   6/13/2004 12:29:47 AM
The idea sounds good but lets take it to its conclusion. Now you have a recoilless rifle/mortar combo. Who carries it? Do you give up your company mortar section and equip the assaultmen (SMAW gunners)with it? What happens when they are busting bunkers and you need a indirect fire mission? Do we call off the assault to engage the enemy trucks off loading ammo over the hill . Or do we continue the assault and pass up the indirect fire target? Don't tell me you keep both. Doesn't happen that way in the military. Even if it did you have given me either a good bunkerbuster thats a POS mortar or a good mortar thats a crappy bunkerbuster vice the weapons we have that kick butt at what they were designed to do. And once again it doesnt reduce the ROF so no logistic reduction. It may reduce the types of weapons but not the amount of fire. Example, with numbers pulled out of my rear, I am tasked with assaulting a position that has 4 MG bunkers. I will need 5 min of HE suppression from my company mortars for the assault, and 2 min of smoke to mask my assault teams getting into firing positions. So I need 100 HE for the mortars, 20 RPM divided by 3 guns = 34 rounds per tube 50 rds of HC smoke. Build fast and sustain for 2 min (wind dependant). 4 bunkers= 12 SMAW rds or 3 per team, although accurate you sometimes miss when people are trying to kill you. And they will get some of my gunners so I need to be able to have each gunner able to take out a primary and secondary. So 150 Mortar rounds and 12 SMAW rounds. If I use this RR/Mortar I will need 162 rounds. How does the logistics burden change? As a footnote the Chechnians (bad spelling, Im a jarhead) shot RPG rounds at high angle during the 2d battle of Grozny as a poor mans harrasment mortar.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! Horse   6/13/2004 12:58:20 PM
>>He tries to give the impression that he was active duty. And was for less than a year. Kicked out during comm school for being a fat body. Then joined the reserves when in college. Completed OCS so he did have the title of officer in the Corps but was dropped at The Basic School. Never made it to the FMF. Became a USAR officer instead.<< So no active-army time either? His page gave me the impression he had been an 82nd guy at some point. Sounds like he's in a pretty rare, if not dignified, group -- I'm guessing there aren't that many guys out there that the USMC allows to come back and try to earn the coveted gold "L" for second award of their Can't Make the Grade ribbon. I can totally believe what you're saying (and it would explain a whole lot about the guy), but it does make me wonder how he got hooked up with the other authors listed on that Air-Mech Strike book, most of whom I remember as being senior field grades or generals.
 
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   RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -keit   6/13/2004 8:33:32 PM
Hey Sam, I would have called in AH-64 and smoke to cover my laser unit, but as a standard method you could use the same round in both weapons, but like I said I would have called in AH-64's to pound the MG bunkers. a single hellfire with thermobarionic should do per bunker. Keep your morters for something else, thus my support for GotGavin! Sincerely, Keith
 
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Sam    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -keit   6/13/2004 9:59:47 PM
"Keep your morters for something else, thus my support for GotGavin!" Oh, I see, it comes from a lack of knowledge and experence. I assaulted the position "in house" 60 mortars belong to me as do mortar FOs and the SMAW teams. I can use internal comm (Squad radios and pyro) to control. Don't need to clear any fires through higher. Where did the Ah-64 come from? Last I checked , they wern't organic to a infantry company. But I'll give them to you. And the FAC to do the 12 line (9 line if its a Marine/Navy bird). And he will bring the Laser? I'll even give you those "Therobaric Hellfires" Whos doing SEAD for your 64s? Does your company have Priority of fires? They must, because to get those 64s you must be the Bdg POME! What do you do when that bird aborts prior to getting to you? Or what if he is only has FFARs? (standard loadout for ground support) What if you have a ceiling below 400 ft? Most important, how will you lase the tgt since you obscured the darn thing with smoke? No wonder you call the alum shoebox a Gavin. You havn't served a day have you?
 
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wagner95696    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -GotGavin   6/13/2004 10:06:57 PM
Recoilless rifles are very wasteful of propellants. They require almost twice the powder to get the same results. Once you get to larger caliber RR the ammo weight alone is going to tie them to mechanised transport. Mount a mortar (AMOS /) on a mechanised chassis and be done with it. Next question?
 
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GotGavin?    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -GotGavin   6/14/2004 12:31:34 PM
How much does one of those Copperheads cost? What about fog/smoke/dust/limited line of sight for a laser? Point taken on the dismounts.....
 
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GotGavin?    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -GotGavin   6/14/2004 12:33:11 PM
Open-bootom for shoulder fire & a sealable base for expendable single-fire mortar.
 
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GotGavin?    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -keit   6/14/2004 12:34:27 PM
What about AMOS? My impression is that it can fire at shorter ranges with direct, frontal impact fire; not low-tragectory top attack. I could be wrong....
 
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GotGavin?    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -keit   6/14/2004 12:41:20 PM
It doesn't change the number of rounds fired, it reduces the types of weapons systems to fire them. A mortar & a SMAW have different people to fire 'em, different spare parts, different people to fix 'em, different manuals, different training, different everything. Fewer weapons systems, if still as effective/lethal, means more people can train longer to use them. Not so many specialized users.
 
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   RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -keit   6/14/2004 2:33:28 PM
Hey Sam, Actually we were experimenting with laser designators when I was in the 1st CAV. I personnelly would like to see a higher density of AH-64 in a division. I understand your point about smoke but you could wait for it to clear just use it for positioning. Sincerely, Keith
 
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   RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -keit   6/15/2004 10:55:30 PM
Hey Sam, I thought about your post, and this is my response. I suggested a unit called a LCBA(lite Cavalry bragand). The air assault bn. had a full troops of AH-64. It was meant to get the recon units(3 bns) into motion by assaulting enemy road blocks. it also had a MLRS battery later version was bn size available. The recon bns had six helos in support(rah-66 was my plan) of each recon company. It never made it anywhere, but there you go verses my AH-64 idea! Sincerely, Keith
 
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Sam    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -Got Gavin   6/17/2004 9:17:38 PM
You said: "It doesn't change the number of rounds fired, it reduces the types of weapons systems to fire them." So do you plan on still having a mortar and assault section? "A mortar & a SMAW have different people to fire 'em, different spare parts, different people to fix 'em, different manuals, different training, different everything. Fewer weapons systems, if still as effective/lethal, means more people can train longer to use them. Not so many specialized users" And an Recoilless rifle/mortar combo would have the parts for both either carried or attached. The Assault section draws a RR/M that has a direct fire (shoulder mount) Day/night direct fire sights. Now you want them to draw all the mortar stuff too? If they don't draw the bipod, baseplate, indirect fire sights, plotting board, aimming post w/lights. will all lots of ammo be certified for direct and indirect fire? Where do the TFTs come from? Will the assaultmen be trained in mortar gunnery? How much time does it leave for them to practice their PMOS? You havn't solved the "different everything" problem. Or reduced the number of rounds. Same amount of maintenance.You have reduced the number of TMs. instead of a SMAW TM and a mortar TM you have a RR/Mortar TM 1 thich one vice 2 small ones! What have you accomplished?
 
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Sam    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -Got Gavin   6/17/2004 9:20:32 PM
Copperhead when first produced, late 70s early 80s, cost 60 thous. I believe at the end of production it was about 1/10th of that.
 
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