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Subject: US infantry individual infantry skills
Aussiegunner    11/11/2004 10:42:57 AM
I saw a TV news report tonight of a contact by a USMC foot patrol, which had just been bumped by a group of insurgents in Falluja. I have to say I was extremely un-impressed with the indivudual skills the Marines displayed on the contact. This corrosponds with actions I have seen on previous reports, though they have usually involved US Army personal. I'm suprised about this, because Marine Infantry training is generally more highly regarded than that of its army counterparts. Anyway, the specific concerns were,

1. On contact the soldiers bunched together, didn't take cover or move near a wall to limit their exposure to fire and didn't crouch or lie prone with nearly enough of a sense of urgency.

2. When they were scanning for the enemy, they didn't allow their weapons to follow their gaze, ie, "patrol their arcs" for an immediate shot on identification.

3. One USMC rifleman based on a roof to provide covering fire, did so by holding his rifle above his head while remaining under cover. There was no chance of proper target identification, let alone an aimed shot, so it was just pissing away ammunition while giving away his position and risking ricochets against any bystanders for no good reason. Note that there was a GPMG based on the same roof providing effective aimed fire, so there was really no excuse for the rifleman not to do the same.

4. One soldier sent around a corner to investigate where the fire came from described his experience. It went something like "I went around the corner and the insurgent in that garage took a shot and threw a frag at me. I ran back, tripped over a dead body(one of theirs, not ours), and came back here. For Christ sake, hadn't he ever heard of looking around the corner with a mirror, before walking around!?! Lucky the insurgent was a rotten shot!

5. An insurgent ran across a roof, bobbing above a ledge, about 100 metres away from our rifle squad. The Marinesl, still bunched together so one RPG would kill about six of them, fired with half aimed automatic bursts and some semi-automatic fire from their M-16's. At this point I must say that I've never seen a properly aimed shot from anything smaller than a 120mm tank gun from the US military in these reports. Do they teach proper marksmanship during US basic training nowdays?

6. Anyhow, something managed to hit the insurgent, because he ended up wounded between two buildings behind some sort of a barrier. So, one of the Marines pops his head over the barrier and shoots the insurgent. He's lucky he didn't get his head blown off. A grenade is the weapon of choice in such a situation, IMHO at least.

I note that the news reports are claiming about a 3 to 1 kill ratio in favour of the US in Falluja at the moment. That isn't that flash giving a large numerical and a huge technological advantage. If this report is an indication of the general standard of individual infantry skills amongst US troops, no wonder this is the case.

As citizen of an allied nation, I'm not trying to be smart or play one upmanship, but the US really needs to look at the way it trains its troops. Try looking at a few nations that use the British model, if you want some tips. It would be better at keeping your boys and girls alive, than all the high-tech wizardry you buy for them.
 
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IsoT    RE:US infantry individual infantry skills   11/11/2004 11:07:58 AM
I also noted the fat rate figters used their ammo at newsclips (what seemed) at "unseen targets". Also no movement that I noticed (ie movement on contact, to keep situation fluid for the enemy)
 
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Yimmy    RE:US infantry individual infantry skills   11/11/2004 11:15:31 AM
Not that I mean to "bash" anyone, but I do mostly agree with you. Just the other day I was watching a BBC news footage of American marines outside of the city; one soldier had taken a good position by a derelict building, and was fireing aimed (if somewhat rapid) shots in the direction of Faluja. His mistake being that he was holding his rifle so tightly into the side of the wall, that the rifle was violently jerking to the right with every shot, his rounds no doubt completely missing whatever he was shooting at. How to shoot from the knealing supported position is one of the basics of shooting... you would expect a marine to know how to..
 
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joe6pack    RE:US infantry individual infantry skills   11/11/2004 11:57:35 AM
Well, I think you are correct in most of your points. The issues you bring up would be mistakes by the Army training standards for infantry. However, there are some things to keep in mind. 1) The actions of a unit or a couple units do not necessarily reflect the readiness of the whole force. All and all US infantry has performed pretty well in recent history. 2) Are you positive they were infantry? One of the major issues I've had with the US Iraq policy, is because of the lack of boots on the ground other MOS's are being used to do patrols. I remember having seen some SP Artillery guys doing a dismounted patrol in Baghdad and it made me cringe just watching them. 3) For most of these troops, it's probably the first time anyone has actively tried to kill them.. Yes there is training, but the first time someone takes a shot at you.. things are a little different. 4) Use of reserves. I agree with you, that the US needs to work on its training for reserve units. I served both active and reserve Infantry and the difference was day in night. "As citizen of an allied nation, I'm not trying to be smart or play one upmanship, but the US really needs to look at the way it trains its troops. Try looking at a few nations that use the British model, if you want some tips. It would be better at keeping your boys and girls alive, than all the high-tech wizardry you buy for them" Well, in regards to this - I do grow annoyed with the "US depends on high tech" stereotype. The media and the brass focus on it but it has very little to do with infantry training. The highest tech gizmo's we used were pretty much the night vision and GPS and even then I still spent far more time using a compass and doing land navigation courses than I care to think about. The issues you mention are all contrary to the training that I'm aware of. If some units are not meeting the standards I'm sure it will be addressed.
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:US infantry individual infantry skills - Joe   11/11/2004 3:18:24 PM
"1) The actions of a unit or a couple units do not necessarily reflect the readiness of the whole force. All and all US infantry has performed pretty well in recent history." I thought of that, but I've seem similar instances in other clips. "2) Are you positive they were infantry? One of the major issues I've had with the US Iraq policy, is because of the lack of boots on the ground other MOS's are being used to do patrols. I remember having seen some SP Artillery guys doing a dismounted patrol in Baghdad and it made me cringe just watching them." As my handle suggests, I wasn't in the infantry and I cringed. Most of the issues at stake are contrary to training done for every cook whose been through basic training in the Australian Army, especially after they have been worked. "3) For most of these troops, it's probably the first time anyone has actively tried to kill them.. Yes there is training, but the first time someone takes a shot at you.. things are a little different." As they say about learning to fly, you start with a bag full of luck and empty bag of experience. The idea is to fill the bag of experience before you empty your bag of luck. Still, I hope my training would have served me better than these guys did. "4) Use of reserves. I agree with you, that the US needs to work on its training for reserve units. I served both active and reserve Infantry and the difference was day in night." I agree on this, as I've done the same. However, I would expect that the reserves would be worked up before deployments, to a better standard than this.
 
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joe6pack    RE:US infantry individual infantry skills - AG   11/11/2004 5:08:49 PM
Well, not sure how to further respond. Maybe some of the Marines around can comment. All I can tell you is that the gigs you mention would have been unacceptable in any training I was ever part of. So to answer your question, yes US troops are trained better than that. However, I'd like to stress that the environment they are in is a lot more chaotic and stressful than even the best of training provides for. I'm also a little loathe to critique it when I not there with them.
 
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Ehran    RE:US infantry individual infantry skills - AG   11/11/2004 7:04:59 PM
it's hard to critique without longer bits of footage than we normally see on the news. 30-45 seconds just isn't enough to assess what's going on in anything but the basest terms.
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:US infantry individual infantry skills - AG   11/11/2004 8:20:26 PM
I agree with you guys that news footage doesn't tell the whole story. If this were an isolated clip and if I hadn't had similar deficiencies in US training pointed out to me, by experienced Australian, New Zealand and British soldiers who have exercised with the Americans, I would discount it. However, there appears to be a pattern to me. That said, I'd be well and truly open to plausible explanations of why this pattern might not represent the true state of US infantry indivudual skills.
 
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joe6pack    RE:US infantry individual infantry skills - AG   11/11/2004 8:41:44 PM
Well, a final thing to take into consideration, particularly with the rotation schedule Iraq seems to have for US units.. There are probably a good number of troops that are more or less fresh out of training. One of the big differences between the US and UK / Austrailian militaries is the turn over in troops. I'll make the argument that you really are not fully trained until you have spent a year or more with your unit after Basic and AIT. Normal US training rotations take that into account in training cycles. Generally when you seem to pick up a lot of new troops you normally go into a long and pretty intense train up for 6 or 8 months. However, the commitment Iraq is requiring may not be allowing for it. That might be the push for the "stop loss" orders that are making the press here and stirring up the nonsense "back door draft" BS. Commanders are probably unhappy with the prospect of loosing troops with years of experience to be replaced by relatively new troops. But thats just speculation on my part.. and thinking about the age of some of the casualties..
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:US infantry individual infantry skills - AG   11/12/2004 2:32:51 AM
"Well, a final thing to take into consideration, particularly with the rotation schedule Iraq seems to have for US units.. There are probably a good number of troops that are more or less fresh out of training." Still, you probably couldn't be a US Army or Marine corp NCO nowdays and not have some combat experience. They should be kicking the newbies in the arse, until they spread out. I didn't hear one Sergent shouting at his men, throughout the entire engagement. I saw another clip today with more troops huddling far too close together, though I saw my first deliberately aimed shot from an M-16 and some of them were patrolling their arcs, so at least that tells us some of them learned something during basic.
 
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joe6pack    RE:US infantry individual infantry skills - AG   11/12/2004 7:13:52 AM
Just curious where you are getting all the video clips? It sounds like the ozzie news is covering this better than the US news (although, sadly, that doesn't surprise me...)
 
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Heorot    RE:what they heck   11/12/2004 4:09:35 PM
Press enter to go to a new line before you post.
 
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ambush    RE:US infantry individual infantry skills   11/12/2004 6:19:03 PM
I am going to jump on this band wagon and say that US infantry training, to include the Marines, is neither long enough nor intensive enough. Sadly it is just enough to get by. Having said that, I can recall seeing a lot the same problems during Nam era as you see now. Raising the rifle over the wall or firing from the hip, using the "spray and pray" technique. To be fair I will also add that I saw a lot of good techniques in the Iraq footage, well aimed fire, good individual and team movement so maybe the problem is not force wide but limited to a few units who happen to make it on TV. There are also some other possible explanations (not excuses though) for the bad form being exhibited. The big one is the train up these Marines receive prior to deployment. Marines deploying as part of scheduled Marine Expeditionary Unit go through and intense pre-deployment train up, including refreshers on the basics. These Marines probably did to get normal MEU train up since they are not part of a MEU rotation (that is a guess). Second is are the reservists? Not an excuse but the reality is that most reserve units do not get the quality training they should. They are hampered by personnel shortages, lack of locations to train in many cases, and having their monthly weekend drills so bogged own with administrative nonsense that they don't have time. This of course makes a strong case for not having any combat arms reserve or NG units. Finally let us ask, when was the last time we faced a quality opponent? That has a lot to do with it. The mistakes we armchair generals see from the comfort of our recliner with a beer in hand may not be registering with the troops on the ground (who are not so comfortable) because they are not facing an opponent who can capitalize on our guys mistakes. This reduces the idea that they need to change the way they do things. Lets face it; is easy to criticize from where we are at, but from all accounts the good guys are doing a great job.
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:US infantry individual infantry skills   11/13/2004 10:01:58 AM
"To be fair I will also add that I saw a lot of good techniques in the Iraq footage, well aimed fire, good individual and team movement so maybe the problem is not force wide but limited to a few units who happen to make it on TV." I've seen some good techniques used along with a majority of bad ones. That tells me the consistancy isn't there. "There are also some other possible explanations (not excuses though) for the bad form being exhibited. The big one is the train up these Marines receive prior to deployment. Marines deploying as part of scheduled Marine Expeditionary Unit go through and intense pre-deployment train up, including refreshers on the basics. These Marines probably did to get normal MEU train up since they are not part of a MEU rotation (that is a guess)." The skills I saw were very poor, even for peacetime troops who haven't had a pre-operation train up. In any case, if they didn't get properly prepared, the brass has a lot to answer for. In fact, they have a lot to answer for poor emphasis on indivudual skills full stop, because the buck stops with them when it comes to training their troops. "Second is are the reservists? Not an excuse but the reality is that most reserve units do not get the quality training they should." These were Marine riflemen in the assault on Falluja. I doubt that they are reservists on such a high profile operation. "Finally let us ask, when was the last time we faced a quality opponent? That has a lot to do with it." Australian and British forces haven't faced quality opponents for a very long time either. However, when we have had infantry action in recent years, they have proven that the forces have a good enough institutional memory to maintain excellent skills. The US forces really need to take a look at why they are not doing the same. "Lets face it; is easy to criticize from where we are at, but from all accounts the good guys are doing a great job." Firstly, it is more the leadership of the US military that I would hold to account. They obviously need to emphasise individual skills in their training programs far more. I don't blame the troops. They just do the best they can with the training they have. Secondly, I hate to say it but the US military isn't doing a great job with regards to the Iraqi insurgency, as opposed to the conventional wars in Iraq and elsewhere, where they performed fantastically. If you want to win these types of wars indivudual skills an important factor in doing so. It is one of the main reasons the Commonwealth forces are so successful at controlling their AO's, when they are deployed within the alliance on various different missions. If this was just a case of my opinion, as somebody who has only served in peacetime, I'd be more reticient about critisising. However, I have heard the same critisisms by family members who have served in various conflicts, including one ex-British Parachute Regiment NCO. He describes US infantry training as having not progressed beyond teaching the troops to be cannon fodder, which is a pretty damning inditement really.
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:US infantry individual infantry skills - AG/Joe   11/13/2004 10:08:21 AM
We get good coverage off the Australian Broadcasting Commission. They get a lot from the reporters embedded with the troops.
 
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masterE    RE:US infantry individual infantry skills   11/13/2004 1:20:33 PM
I spent time in the US Infantry just prior to the Persian Gulf War. I know for a fact that the US Infantry training does not promote grouping while under fire. My time in the military was prior to all the "high tech wizardry." My fear is that we do rely more heavily on this stuff than we should. But, I also agree with joe6pack on the matter that the troops are being used outside of the training that they've recieved. Although every soldier goes through basic training and has to exihibit a certain level weapons familiarity, the infantry MOS is a specialized function, which is not mastered until the individual goes through further training in their permanent unit. Unfortunately, for this war in Iraq, it does not seem like enough of these trained individuals exist. Oh, and by the way, the USMC is not a testament to the skills of the specialized US Army infantry units. The USMC is notorious for being under supported. They are the last to get everything. I feel that this must pass on to their training. They simply have a very strong marketing campaign and reputation for being the most "hard corps."
 
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