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Subject: Marine Artillery
ambush    5/30/2004 7:54:33 PM
The Marine Corps is looking toward changing how it is equipping it artillery. In the past the Marine Corps used to have a lot of Artillery of different types: Self propelled 8 inch, 175mm and 155mm along with towed 155mm and 105mm. This was organized into Field Artillery Groups and Artillery Regiments. It went through various reorganizations and after the defeat of the Soviet Union was greatly reduced in search of the ?Peace Dividend.? It was cut back to only one type towed 155mm (M198) with a few 105mm kept on hand just in case.
The M198 was never my favorite for amphibious ops because of its weight. I also like the 105mm because you can drop the rounds closer to friendly forces when the bad guys are in the wire.

The Marine Corps has recognized the current organizations short comings and it is reorganizing and re-equipping. Current plans include the HIMARS and new 155mm howitzer and 120mm mortar.

What should the Marine Corps buy and how should it be organized?

In my opinion the Marine Corps Artillery should be designed for two purposes: deployment with Marine Expeditionary Units-MEU and deployment with larger Marine Air Ground Task Forces-MACTFs involved in longer sustained ops like the Gulf Wars.

The Artillery component for a MEU normally consists of one battery of M198, 155mm Howitzers, a heavy beast. The MEU is designed as a kick in the door/roof force designed for 30 days of self sustained combat to secure entry in the theater of operations (among other missions) for the follow on heavy forces of the Army and/or a. MAGTF. I think that the MEU artillery component should be changed to two batteries. One Battery should be a 105mm howitzer battery, perhaps along the lines of the excellent light 105mm L119 (UK) M119 (US). The second battery should be equipped with a towed 120mm Mortar like the Army?s M120 or a towed version of the Marine Corps Mobile Fire support system that is under development. Both these systems are light enough to ease the problems of getting them ashore with the assets available to a MEU.

The minimum safe distances for the 105mm and 120m are about 100 meters closer than a 155m allowing for tighter support of the troops if needed. Advances in technology also allow for more varieties of ammunition to be developed like thermobaric ammo for the 120mm mortar.
Granted you loose firepower andrange by givign up the 155 but I think the gains in logisitics, rate of fire and in th ecaseof th rmortar high angle fire, offset this.

The MACTF artillery component should be heavier because it can be a much larger force and find itself in situations like Gulf Wars I and II. Exact composition should be based on size and mission of the force but the following equipment should be available:

HIMARS

A wheeled 155mm howitzer like the French Caesar but on a LAV or HIMARS vehicle bed.

A LAV based 120mm mortar.

These three systems should be transportable by Marine KC-130.

Figure on a Battalion of each system with each Marine Artillery Regiment. Four firing batteries per Battalion for the 105 howitzer and 120mm mortars to support MEU deployments and 3 firing batteries for the HIMARS and 155SP. Have one battery of the LAV mounted 120mm with each LAV Battalion.



 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Marine Artillery   5/30/2004 8:05:43 PM
>>The second battery should be equipped with a towed 120mm Mortar like the Army?s M120 or a towed version of the Marine Corps Mobile Fire support system that is under development. Both these systems are light enough to ease the problems of getting them ashore with the assets available to a MEU.<< What about just equipping the MEU's infantry battalion with 120mm mortars in lieu (or along with) their 81mm tubes? Those guys already know what they're doing, and double hatting them as 81mm or 120mm capable means you don't have to shave manpower off the rifle elements of the MEU (or add more bodies) to bring 120mm boom to the fight.
 
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PuckaMan    RE:Marine Artillery   5/30/2004 8:36:47 PM
They're getting the M777 (155mm lightweight fieldhowitzer) - an outstanding piece of kit aren't they? If not, they would do well to do so. Pucka
 
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ambush    RE:Marine Artillery   5/30/2004 9:17:32 PM
I considered the idea of just replacing the Battalions 81s with 120s but rejected for a couple of reasons. Size and weight make me consider the 120mm more of an Artillery system not an Infantry Battalion fire support weapon. The 81 is still man packable. I know the 81 is heavy but it is much lighter than the 120. I had a First Sergeant who liked to assign those who had a habit of being a little late for formation to help the 81 guys hump the base plate on Road Marches. The Royal Marines do it on a regular bases and it was an important capability in the Falklands. Nobody was going to ?yomp? with a 120mm. Figure about 90- 95 lbs for a the M252 81mm mortar and over 300 for the 120mm. The weight thing translates down to ammunition: figure about 15lbs per round of 81mm ammo and 30lbs for 120mm. You assign the grunts to hump extra rounds for the 60mm and 81mm for the mortars. How many rounds of 120mm can these guys hump instead of 81s. Given certain terrain your Battalion commander might have to leave his 120s behind were he can take his 81s. You are a Marine Battalion or Company commander heading into the mountains of Afghanistan with resupply and fire support difficulties imposed by weather, terrain and altitude. I like the 81mm for its ease of movement and that it allows me to bring more ammo the first time in. I have seen 81s set up and used from building roof tops (sturdy buildings). I would also still like to have a dedicated 120mm Battery within the MEU so the MEU commander can have both 120s and 81s at the same time instead being limited to one or the other.
 
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ambush    RE:Marine Artillery   5/30/2004 10:32:27 PM
RE:Marine Artillery 5/30/2004 8:36:48 PM They're getting the M777 (155mm lightweight fieldhowitzer) - an outstanding piece of kit aren't they? If not, they would do well to do so The M777 may be a fine system but I don't think a 155mm caliber weapon is what the MEU needs nor does a larger MAGTF need a towed 155 when a more mobile and just as tranportable wheeled options like the Caesar are an option. The need for a light self propelled system for the Marine Corps was demonstrated in Gulf Wars I&II. For the MEU the 105 howitzer and 120mm mortar allow for supporting fires to laid closer to freindly forces and require smaller prime movers. The M119 is still lighter than the M777 and can be towed by a HMMVW. The M777 will still require and 5ton truck and have the same logistal requirements of the M198. Perhaps take the M777 and mount it on a wheeled chasis similar to Caesar.
 
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towgunner1960    RE:Marine Artillery   5/30/2004 10:51:15 PM
Eliminate 81mm all together, and just use m244 60mm, (3500m range), total system weight about 45lbs vs 90lbs for 81mm. You have most of the range and lethality of 81 plus you can carry all those bombs. Use 120mm in tracked or wheeled vehicle. Between 60 and 120mm you can solve any problem you are likely to encounter......
 
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towgunner1960    RE:Marine Artillery   5/30/2004 10:53:37 PM
As far as mortars are concerned.....
 
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ambush    RE:Marine Artillery   5/30/2004 11:14:44 PM
Eliminate 81mm all together, and just use m244 60mm, (3500m range), total system weight about 45lbs vs 90lbs for 81mm. You have most of the range and lethality of 81 plus you can carry all those bombs. Have to disagree. The 60 mm has neither the rangen orthe leathality of an 81mm. The M224 60mm has a max effective range of about 3400meters. The M252 81mm can reach out to over 5600 meters. The 81mm HE shell carries a larger charge than the 60mm and has a casualty radius of aout 30 meters vs. 5 meters for the 60mm. The 60mm is great at the Company level for Light, Airborne and Marine units just as the 81s fill a need atthe battalion level. If I were in a Mech or Armored unit I can see replacing all the 81s with 120s since weight is less of a problem.
 
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towgunner1960    RE:Marine Artillery   5/30/2004 11:45:36 PM
The battalion replaces 81 with 120. They already have 120,s and used to have 107,s when I was in. The 60 is very reasonably humpable with probably twice the ammunition carried, compared to 81. Most targets at over 3000meters can't even be seen, let alone fired on accurately at that distance and you already have 120,s in the unit for extended range fire missions. The army has already mostly phased out 81. There is also no way that the 60 only has a kill radius of 5 meters, a grenade and 40mm round has that type of radius. A 60 would have a kill radius of more like 20-25 meters....
 
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ambush    RE:Marine Artillery   5/31/2004 2:40:32 AM
"Most targets at over 3000meters can't even be seen, let alone fired on accurately at that distance and you already have 120,s in the unit for extended range fire missions. The army has already mostly phased out 81." If you plan on limiting your Battalion and Company patrols to within the view of your direct fire weapons then I guess you would have no need for even 60mm mortar would you? I would imagine that would also apply if you limited your snipers and LP/OPs to the same restricitons. I for one would not want to surrender that much battle space to the enemy. Sure Mortars do not deliver pinpint accuracy , although precision rounds are being developed, But they make up for that in rate of fire. "There is also no way that the 60 only has a kill radius of 5 meters, a grenade and 40mm round has that type of radius. A 60 would have a kill radius of more like 20-25 meters..." Actually the 60mm HE round and the M67 Hand Grenade have only about 6 ounces of Comp B as an explosive charge thus the similar casulty radius. The 81mm HE has about 2 pounds of the Comp B.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Marine Artillery   5/31/2004 11:31:42 AM
>>I considered the idea of just replacing the Battalions 81s with 120s but rejected for a couple of reasons. Size and weight make me consider the 120mm more of an Artillery system not an Infantry Battalion fire support weapon.<< US Army, to include light infantry battalions, use 120mm as the battalion commander's fire support. Big punch, but range is too limited (7 km or so) to support more than about a battalion anyway, without directly attaching them out, so why not just put them in the battalion? >>The 81 is still man packable. I know the 81 is heavy but it is much lighter than the 120. I had a First Sergeant who liked to assign those who had a habit of being a little late for formation to help the 81 guys hump the base plate on Road Marches. The Royal Marines do it on a regular bases and it was an important capability in the Falklands. Nobody was going to ?yomp? with a 120mm. << The Rangers yomp it -- mortar crews pull the weapon on modified trailers. Admittedly a ball buster, but doable. I agree on the relative weights and such -- but if you give the mortarmen at battalion both tubes to float with, they can use either, or mix and match, based on the mission requirements -- as you note, in certain terrain they pack in 81mm, in other places you support your 120mms with motor transport or aerial resupply when you need the big punch. In a pinch, 120mm equipped teams can always put in the sub-cal training sleeves and fire 81mm as well. >>I would also still like to have a dedicated 120mm Battery within the MEU so the MEU commander can have both 120s and 81s at the same time instead being limited to one or the other.<< Equipping the battalion mortars with both allows mixing and matching. A seperate 120mm platoon (or battery) adds more bang, but aren't MEUs pretty tight in terms of the transports that carry them? Would the 120mm unit mean 30 or so riflemen or other personnel would have to stay home?
 
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ambush    RE:Marine Artillery   5/31/2004 8:16:00 PM
"Equipping the battalion mortars with both allows mixing and matching. A seperate 120mm platoon (or battery) adds more bang, but aren't MEUs pretty tight in terms of the transports that carry them? Would the 120mm unit mean 30 or so riflemen or other personnel would have to stay home" If talking about deck space, my orignal suggesting is replacing a single 155 Bttry with a Bttry of 105mm Howitzers and 120mm mortars The logistics burdent ofthe M198 is much biggerand requires a larger prime mover and ammo carrier(5 ton trucks) vs HMMVWs foir the 105s and 120s. I do nto have a template to work with but I am think the deck space should work out about even. The same should apply to Helicopter lift. Manpower is a question for the Artilery Regiments. The logistics burden for the 105s and 120s is less so there is a manpower savings there. The Arty guys would find themselves deployed more since they would be sending two Batteries per MEU instead of one. But since the Amphibs are going to a surge method like the Carriers the deployments are not going to be that bad I am pretty sure that the Rangers do not man handle that M120 very far. Plus there is the Ammo to consider. A single round of 81mm HE is about 9lbs. A single round of 120mm HE in about 29 lbs. Just as a comparison I believe a single 105mm HE round weighs between 30-35lbs. The 120mm is fine Battalion Mortar for Mech and Armored Untis but for Light, Airborne and Marine Units I think the M120 is better classed as an Artillery piece. For a time I was assigned to 106mm recoiless rifle team-the old M40. That thing weighed over 400lbs and nobody consider pushing it over long disnaces dismounted form it jeep or mule even though it was mounted on a one wheeled tripod.
 
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doggtag    RE:Marine Artillery   5/31/2004 8:31:23 PM
some of the latest generation of 105mm ammo can be pushed out to even about 30km. And the newer computer designed (for fragmentive effect and lethality) shells for 105 and 120mm are even as lethal as heavier 155mm shells. Add to the fact that shell guidance systems are shrinking rapidly, and these lighter sysytems may end up being the better choices. Future precision guided 120mm rounds could reach considerably farther than current rounds, and as precision rounds become more accurate, the need for area effect saturation will slowly dwindle away. Perhaps only in air-bursting anti-personnel roles will the massed volleys of artillery be employed. And if you can get a single 105mm or 120mm round into a 2-3m CEP, then unless you have a largely spread out area target, you won't really be needing cluster ammunition either (meaning no left over bomblets risking the civilians)..
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Marine Artillery   5/31/2004 8:47:26 PM
>>I am pretty sure that the Rangers do not man handle that M120 very far. Plus there is the Ammo to consider. A single round of 81mm HE is about 9lbs. A single round of 120mm HE in about 29 lbs.<< I'll check with my buddy at work who was with 3rd Battalion, but from talking to him I get the sense guys hauled it off the drop zone or landing zone out to objectives. From what he said it sounded like he was there when battalion mortars graduated to 120mm (they may mix and match 81mm and 120mm like I've discussed here, not sure) since the regimental commander or someone at the time was taken with how the WW2 Ranger units had 4.2" chemical mortar companies attached for fire support. From what he said (he wasn't a mortar guy, parenthetically), hauling it by hand on the trailer was not an ideal solution, but one which the guys could manage. I gather the entire gun crew was involved in pulling the weapon. I'm guessing ammunition would be on another cart, but will check on it.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Marine Artillery   5/31/2004 8:54:05 PM
>>Future precision guided 120mm rounds could reach considerably farther than current rounds<< I seem to recall that the 120mm PGM mortar round the US is working on is supposed to have at least double the range of the current rounds.
 
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stinger       3/9/2008 8:38:53 PM
a marine armored battalion is a little different than an army armored battalion. the marines have a tow platoon and a scout platoon. army armored  battalions have a scout platoon and a mortar platoon . i know the marines have mortars at the battalion and company level in the infantry battalions and the LAV battalions have a mortar platoon, but i asking why not a mortar platoon in a marine armored battalion? 
 
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