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Subject: Gen II LAV
JCT    3/21/2005 2:42:56 PM
From two separate and reputable sources, I've learned that the Marine Corps intends to purchase Gen II LAVs and upgrade its current fleet to the Gen II baseline.

I do not have a complete rundown of the differences between the Gen I and Gen II, but I believe it mostly concerns the firecontrol and electronics. There may be some automotive differences too.

There was no firm timeline as no contracts have been awarded (to my knowledge.)

I think that this will be a great improvement to the current fleet of vehicles and will help with the increased number of LAR companies.
 
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Eagle601    RE:Gen II LAV   3/22/2005 2:29:55 AM
I thought Marines already Gen IIs and the new models are Gen III, which the Stryker is based on? The Gen I is the 6 wheel drive version used by Canada.
 
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Eagle601    RE:Gen II LAV   3/22/2005 2:33:19 AM
Notice the comparison between a LAV-25 and LAV III. It's difficualt to see how you upgrade a LAV-25 to compare with a LAV III. link
 
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JCT    RE:Gen II LAV   3/22/2005 10:23:59 AM
I think that Global Security may have this one wrong. The MOWAG Pirahana site use to have more information on earlier LAVs, but that information is gone. Here are some third party links ? I cannot verify their authenticity, but they back my argument. Back in the mid-80's, the USMC bought the Gen I LAV family. The Aussies borrowed a few and later bought an upgraded version (Gen II) in the mid-90s. link Differences between the two types: "Although the vehicles use the LAV basic hull, the protection level can be increased by the addition of ceramic armour tiles. [USMC vehicles do not have this capability.] The purchase of this additional armour is currently deferred. Crew protection is increased by the fitting of a automatic fire suppression system. The ASLAV specification included a climate control system [this would have been handy in Iraq where interior vehicle temps reached 130F and 160F in the VC hatch ? I really want this mod!] for the crew compartment and the fitting of Australian made Raven radio equipment. Michelin XML tyres are fitted, larger in diameter and cross ? section than the original tyres, and with a more aggressive tread pattern. Vehicles carry a puncture repair kit to allow speedy tyre repair. Different exhaust system, guards for the propellers, different external stowage, different turret stowage, improved barrel for 25mm gun, infantry/tank telephone and differing aerial mounts are some of the many other detail differences which exist between the original LAV and the new ASLAV vehicles." link (This site also provides some more information on the Aussie Gen II history. The Aussies also use the Bison APC and do not carry scouts in the rear of their LAV-25s. My reserve company went to Australia in 2001 and trained with the ASLAV ? they were very impressed.) In addition, the Gen II has a beefier suspension allowing a higher vehicle weight and capacity. As the USMC LAVs have aged, more equipment has been added and some of the above changes have been made (improved barrel, thermal sights, etc.), increasing the weight of the vehicle. This has reduced its off-road capabilities and reduced the reliability of the suspension. Planned improvements include a new thermal sight with laser rangefinder. There is no way to automotively upgrade GenI/II to Gen III, but the electronics package could be purchased and installed ? this would be too expensive. I have seen other sites refer to USMC LAVs as Gen II vehicles, to get the final answer, who wants to call GD Land Systems?
 
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Eagle601    RE:Gen II LAV   3/22/2005 11:56:17 AM
I confused the Piranha series which is almost identical to the LAVs. I don't think replacing the existing LAVs with Coyotes is a bad idea, though I'm not sure if the Coyote can swim. Also, you'd need a modified version to carry troops. Maybe a Bison modified to carry a Delco turrent and 4-6 troops. Then you could assign 2 Coyotes with their sensor suites and 2 Bisons with dismounts to a platoon. The LAV III might be nice, but its too big and can't swim and thus isn't suited for the USMC.
 
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JCT    RE:Gen II LAV   3/22/2005 2:54:35 PM
What would be cool is to replace the 25mm Delco turret w/ the 25mm/TOW version. A TOW missile is stowed on either side of the turret and fired from the gunner's seat. You could then remove the Hammerhead turret from all the LAV-AT variants and convert those vehicles into LAV25s. I agree with the LAV-III, its too big and it can't swim. At one point they were actually contemplating swimming the Tigris River with an LAR Bn. Thankfully they changed their minds.
 
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Eagle601    RE:Gen II LAV   3/23/2005 12:08:26 AM
Why not just scrap the Delco turrent and fit the Rafael 300mm RWS? It features a 30mm cannon(logistical commonality with the EFV/AAAV), a 7.62mm coax, and 2 Spike missles(could be replaced by Javelins). It reduces space and saves weight allowing for more armor or other upgrade withour increasing overall weight. Major drawback is the inability to reload under armor though. i still like the 10 foot sensor mast fitted to the Coyote though. Even you don't fit a RWS, the 300mm cannon would be a good upgrade for the LAV. Now of you could shed 2-3 tons from a LAV-III and restore its swim ability, you could field something really potent.
 
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Eagle601    RE:Gen II LAV   3/23/2005 1:58:34 AM
Here's my idea. Replace the turrent on all LAv-25s and LAV-ATs with the 30mm cannon/TOW missle combo turrent available from General Dynamics. link You have to go to Programs, then Turrents, and you can see the turrent from there. Then you upgrade at least some of the new LAV-30s to Coyote standard. More info can be found by clicking on Programs, than MBT & AFV, then Coyote. The 10 meter senso mast is nice, but you have to sacrifice dismounts, so keeping some LAVs without mast sights would be advisable. I'm sure we could field some lightweight applique armor packages as well, maybe based on the titnaium/composite kits some Hummvees and trucks in Iraq have.
 
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JCT    RE:Gen II LAV   3/23/2005 10:38:24 AM
I like the idea of the 30mm/TOW turret. However, you lose 40 rnds in the ready boxes and the current load-out disappears all too fast. Reloading the ready boxes is a #$&!! pain if you remain buttoned up. The bigger round would be nice. You will have a tough time convincing any LAR commanders to give up any dismounts - they have too few as is. An LAR company only has a platoon's worth of dismounts in the whole company, not enough in Iraq where you are working in built up areas a lot. The mast would be nice with its radar, camera, & other sensors, but I'd rather have 4 Marines in the back who can knock on a door or crawl up a ridgeline.
 
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Eagle601    RE:Gen II LAV   3/23/2005 5:18:23 PM
Maybe instead of raising new LAR co panies we could simply add a mast equipped platoon to eac company in place of the now redundant AT vehicles(which I've been told have never been all that successful). Or you could keep 3 plattons but add a 5th LAV with a mast that has ground search radar, FLIR, a TV camera, range finder, maybe even a small laser designator to call in fire support. I'm pretty sure you could reconfigure the turrent to bring ammo storage back up to near previous levels if you wanted. Our new company could have: 3 platoons with 4 LAV-30s and 1 LAV-30 with mast mounted sensors 1 mortar section with 2 120mm mortar carriers 1 HQ platton with 2 LAV-30s, 1 LAV-C, 1 LAV-R, and 2 LAV-Ls How would this compare to existing companies capability wise?
 
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JCT    RE:Gen II LAV   3/23/2005 6:23:34 PM
I like the way you think. The new T/E has 2 fewer vehicles, but an increased combat capability. There is a net increase of 4 cannons. For cost reasons, lets say only the LAV-30s with the masts have TOWs, then you keep the equivalent AT capability. (You are correct about the Hammerhead TOW launcher, they have not been very successful.) I do not think that we can increase the size of the ready cans, the turret is pretty cramped as is. The dismounts will just have to practice underarmor reloads more often! As a side note, current companies have 3 LAV-L's. If we maintain the 3rd Log, we still have a net decrease of one vehicle. Looks like there will be a decrease of 4 Marines from the T/O.
 
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Eagle601    RE:Gen II LAV   3/23/2005 7:32:04 PM
Considering that I've thought about going to Marine OCS after college and trying to become a LAV officer I've read quite a bit about them.
 
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SpudmanWP    RE:COYOTE   3/24/2005 2:03:54 AM
I am surprised that the COYOTE does not have a laser designator on that mast..
 
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JCT    RE:Gen II LAV   3/24/2005 1:13:41 PM
Give it a shot. LAR is a part of the infantry community in the Marine Corps. Once you finish The Basic School & select infantry, you go to Infantry Officer's Course. In IOC they select which Lts will go to LAR bns and which one to straight infantry bns. I'm from the straight leg infantry myself and only got into the LAR community through the Reserves.
 
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Eagle601    RE:Gen II LAV   3/24/2005 9:48:34 PM
I'll keep that in mind.
 
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orfo    clarification   11/5/2007 2:01:57 AM
Just so everyone is clear LAVs are Piranha's. MOWAG was the original Sweedish manufacturer of the LAV family, but General Dynamics Europe bought out MOWAG and obviously acquired the technology as well. The LAV family breaks down into 3 familys;

The Piranha 1 series which consists of the AVGP (Armoured Vehicle General Purpose). The Canadian Forces used these heavily and equipped it with a 76mm cannon turret. The LAV A2 is also in this family.
The Piranha 2 series includes the LAV 25, the BISON.
The Piranha 3 series includes the LAV 3, the Stryker (which is based on the Canadian built LAV 3) but has a remote weapon station.
 
Thats as far as I know, however I could be incorrect, feel free to reply if I am.
 
 
 
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