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Subject: Caesar
ret13f    4/22/2005 4:36:08 PM
would caesar be a good deal for the USMC?
 
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ambush    RE:Caesar   4/23/2005 11:49:52 PM
I think something like the Caesar would be an excellent fit for the Corps or the Army?s Stryker Brigades for that matter. It think the Marine Artillery Regiments should be reorganized and get rid of towed 155s entirely. Also they should bring back the Field Artillery Groups (rename them for obvious reasons). The Field Artillery Groups should have two battalions each of the HIMARS and a version Caesar (using the M777?) mounted on the same type chassis as the HIMARS. The Field Artillery Groups would be organized to support MCAGTFs like the 1st MEF in Iraq and would not normally be used in support of a regular MEU. This would give the MCAGTF tactical (sp-wheeled) as well as strategically mobile (Both would fit in a C-130) artillery assets capable of delivering heavy firepower. The Artillery regiments will consist of two pieces of artillery, towed light 105s and 120mm mortars. The Marine Expeditionary Units would give up their battery of towed 155s and instead be supported by a battery each of 105s howitzers and 120mm mortars. A lot of people will complain about lack of range and firepower but there are advantages. The 105mm, due to size, has a smaller footprint in terms of deck space, prime mover and logistics support. If you look at places like Afghanistan where almost everything is moved by Helicopter and the altitude taxes the Helicopters performance the logistics of the 105 has a definite advantage. For about the same number of flights (CH-53s) I can lift an entire battery of 105s w/FDC and almost 1000 rounds of ammo (depending on how they are packaged) compared to only about a section of 155s with half has much ammo. You can also drop 105 rounds closer to friendly drops should the bad guys be in the wire or trying to share your fighting position. The 120mm mortars would offer a higher rate of fire and also precision-guided munitions are available now. They also are capable of a higher angle fire (again in the mountains of Afghanistan) than howitzers. The lack of range is partially offset by the aviation assets the MEU has (Harriers and attack helos) along with possible Naval gunfire support if in range. The introduction of armed UCAVs would also redress the range short fall.
 
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ArtyEngineer    RE:Caesar   4/29/2005 6:40:28 PM
Ok I will admit I am biased here as I work on the M777, but I have yet to hear anything good about the Caeser system from any US personnel either military or DoD test and evaluation people who have had hands on experience with it. Last year it was trialed extensively at Yuma Proving Ground in Arizona and as I say people here did not think very highly of it. The thing about the M777 is that it is a Marine Corps program developed by and for the Marines. The JORD (Joint Operational Requirement Document) for which the M777 was developed to fulfill is very restrictive, and required a weapon system specifically designed to fulfill it. It is very very difficult to take a weapon system developed to someone elses requirements and operational doctrines and drop it into another nations inventory. Just my opinion and as I say I know I am biased.
 
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ambush    RE:Caesar   4/29/2005 9:22:35 PM
Your are probably right. I have not heard good things about the M777 either though my info is second or third hand. If you wre building a Caesar type system for the US what gun would you use?
 
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ArtyEngineer    RE:Caesar   5/2/2005 1:33:33 PM
Firstly I dont think I would go with 155mm. Utilisation of a 105mm howitzer in my opinion is a much more sensible option. Recoil forces are much lower and hence easier to integrate the howitzer onto existing truck chassis, withiout need for major redesign of the truck. Also much easier to stabilise the platform, if truck heavy enough and some way to lock out the suspension spades may not be required. Traverse range should also be increased. I believe that Caeser only has a traverse range of +/- 17 Degrees off of centre. Could be wrong on that though. I see no reason why a 105 mm couldnt have a much greater traverse range. Would be very interested to hear what you have heard about the M777, 3rd hand or not its good to know what impression people in the artillery community have of a system that is right now being fielded.
 
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ambush    RE:Caesar   5/4/2005 9:21:13 PM
I have heard that teh M777 light weight is haveing trouble dealing with e the stress of its 155mm caliber. Finaly got to see some footage of the Caesar firing (history or military channel) looks like the recoil of a 155mm could be a problem there also. it shook the whole vehicle. Whiel a 105mm would certainly lessent the recoil problem I think a MAGTF like the 1st MEF in Iraq wold need something heavier than a 105mm and more mobile both tactically and strategically than a towed 155mm (the M198 is a heavy beast)and the M109 is too big for a C-130 and takes up too much deck space on Amphib transport. I wonder if the HMARS chassis would absorb the recoil better.
 
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ArtyEngineer    RE:Caesar   5/5/2005 7:19:15 PM
Last time the M777 had any issues regarding the structures ability to withstand the recoil forces was in Early 2002 when firing in Alaska at 45 below in frozen ground, a trail cracked. That was on the first EMD weapon, since then 7 more EMD weapons were built each one an advancement on the previous, then 2 Pilot Production weapons, to Date 26 Production weapons have been built. 6 of first production weapons underwent operational testing at 29 Palms last year where 15000 rounds were expended. In addition operational testing took place in Alaska the previous winter. No structural failures or any failures related to the weapons sability to withstand the stresses of firing have occured in any of the testing since Early 2002. Hope this puts to bed that persistent malicious rumour that the weapon cant take the loads of top charges ;) Some very good footage of the Caeser on UDLP's (Soon also to be BAE :) )website. UDLP teamed with GIAT to market the system over here.
 
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Maple Leaf    RE:Caesar   1/20/2006 4:04:04 PM
I think that an Americanized Caesar with the M777 mounted on the 11-ton version of the FMTVs would be ideal for the USMC, the Stryker BCTs and the Canadian Army. It would go nicely with the HIMARS as well.
 
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flamingknives    RE:Caesar   1/20/2006 5:24:00 PM
I would recommend Supercat-based vehicles like the LIMAWS(R) and the LIMAWS(G) contender, being as they are helicopter-portable. A mounted 105 on a supercat could be good. Not that I have any bias in the proceedings.
 
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ArtyEngineer    RE:Caesar - Flamingknives   1/20/2006 6:05:16 PM
I have been reliable informed that the MoD are close to making a decision on the LIMAWS(G) system. As you know last year there was an operational evaluation carried out on both the Caeser and the M777/Supacat Portee system. The MoD are keeping any hint of there decision very close to there chest though. But I am getting a visit from some MoD guys in February, and the fact that the Canadians have purchased the weapon (6 off) and the Marines have declared Operational Capability with it makes me confident that it will be the M777/Supacat system. But hey, you never know with the MoD!!!!! By the way FK, were you/are you an Alvis/Vickers (now part of BAE) guy? You always seem well informed on the Chally and Warrior etc?
 
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flamingknives    RE:Caesar - Flamingknives   1/22/2006 5:40:30 PM
No, I'm in the industry but not BAE - I just have excellent Google-Fu on the subject. The MoD does sometimes get a little peculiar, I'll agree.
 
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