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Subject: My idealism shattered
AchtungLagg    5/19/2004 10:20:49 PM
Ive grown up with a great sense of awe and respect for the american soldier, seeing him as the protector and standard bearer of all i hold dear.
however some stuff just doesnt fit into my ideal, i dont really know how to handle some facts.
For example i know of two totally unrelated incidents where a sailor and an army nco both are "dating" (i.e., screwing) 16 year old girls in high school. I dont know if the military does this to people or if these people are drawn to the military or whatever, but, in general, has the "ideal" of the US military changed somewhat since say the 40s or 50s?
I mean, yeah im sure lots of patriots join the military, but i know of an older friend who admitedly joined up so his college would get paid, thankfully hes not in a combat zone(yet) but id hate to think what would happen if he did.
 
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OplotMira    RE:My idealism shattered   5/22/2004 2:52:01 PM
Hey, what is wrong with screwing 16 year-old high-school girls? If that is considered "unpatriotic", then I am glad I am not an American. ;) Jokes aside, there has to be benefits to joining an army if the risk is to have your balls blown off in some far-away country. As for convenience soldiers not not being suitable for combat use, well, when the hits the fan anyone without serious problems would sure pick up a gun and fight. Sincerely OplotMira
 
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rikopotomous    RE:My idealism shattered   12/22/2004 11:03:33 PM
you dont think the soldiers in post war Europe and Japan were humping 16 yr old girls? In response to Oplot, if someone attacks us theyll fight real good. Give em half assed conveluded reasons at first to fight, then they turn out to be bold faced lies and ppl wonder why the boys in Iraq are sluffing it like SLAVES.
 
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jastayme3    RE:My idealism shattered   12/31/2004 1:35:04 AM
No naiveity was shattered. Idealism can still remain. You can still admire US soldiers while admitting their flaws.
 
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GOP    RE:My idealism shattered   5/25/2005 7:41:20 PM
We definitely have some bozos in our armed forces, but please don't judge the whole military on those two things. That is illegal, as you know, and should not be tolerated. For the most part, our troops are professional. I know of two guys in my church who joined the USMC because they have (like me) always wanted to be a Marine. They are professionals. There is also a big difference between national guard soldiers and professional soldiers. You have to keep in mind that this is the 21st century (I know how cheezy that sounds), and that alot of these soldiers are just normal guys, who are trained to kill. In combat, they would do their job, but are regular guys who cuss, 'read' playboy, and listen to hip-hop.
 
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Sam    RE:My idealism shattered   5/25/2005 8:17:32 PM
What young Marines that Cuss and "read" Playboy! I'm Shocked. Next you will be telling me that they partake of intoxicating beverages. say it ain't so :')
 
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Sam    RE:My idealism shattered/more serious note   5/25/2005 8:21:46 PM
Those recruiters need to be turned in to their district HQ. Dipping in the DEP is one thing, but 16 can get you 20 to life. Maybe their Command SgtMaj and Command Master Chief can beat, I mean talk,some sense into their brains. Better that than having parents calling the cops.
 
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shek    RE:My idealism shattered/more serious note   5/25/2005 9:42:07 PM
American soldiers are a reflection of American society, and just as you get guys in American society robbing the cradle, you'll get soldiers, sailors, Marines, etc. that will do the same in their off duty. It definitely is not encouraged nor condoned, but minus restricting soldiers, you cannot control their actions when they are off duty, and as men, if they screw up, then they will be held responsible for their actions.
 
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Yimmy    RE:My idealism shattered/more serious note   5/25/2005 9:42:29 PM
"There is also a big difference between national guard soldiers and professional soldiers" And what exactly is this difference, as you see it?
 
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GOP    RE:My idealism shattered/more serious note - Yimmy/Sam   5/26/2005 8:08:37 PM
Yimmy,there is a difference in professionalism (ie: training) and morale, from what I have heard about them in Iraq. I am certainly not going to knock them, I have no right to, and shouldn't have said what I did. Alot of National Guard soldiers only join for extra money (not all, or even most, but alot). They also cost alot more to train when it comes to deploying them in Iraq, because they have lost some of their training from no practice. I, of course, have no first hand experience on this subject, so I could absolutely be wrong (I should not make so generalized statements). Sam, I am not saying that what they do is wrong. I was just making a point that they are no 'super' professionals or anything. They are typical guys that do typical thing, who are called in war time to do extraordinary things, and the do
 
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Sam    RE:My idealism shattered/more serious note - Yimmy/Sam   5/26/2005 8:24:49 PM
GOP I'm making the point that what they are doing is wrong. Bumping nasties with a 16 yr old is illegal and brings discredit to the services that they serve.
 
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shek    RE:My idealism shattered/more serious note - Yimmy/Sam   5/26/2005 9:14:04 PM
GOP, I found that the national guard soldiers that I dealt with in Iraq were very mission focused and professional, and they were a great asset for our brigade (we had 276 EN BN attached to us). The civilian skill sets that they brought as well were invaluable. The BN S3 was an experienced structural engineer that did yeomans work in advising us on safe construction techniques in our force protection efforts. As another example, one of the SGTs that was on the civil affairs team that worked with my BN was a police officer and used his skills to advise us on what we needed to do to assist in the training of the Iraqi police in our area of operations. These are just two examples. Also, the cost to train ARNG soldiers isn't more than regular soldiers - they just have to work longer duty days to get to the necessary proficiency level. Meals cost the same, barracks space costs the same, ammunition costs the same, etc. All units are required to go through a combat training center (CTC) rotation to complete a mission rehearsal exercise (MRE). Costs are no different for this whether you are ARNG or active.
 
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blacksmith    RE:My idealism shattered   5/26/2005 10:31:41 PM
Legal age of consent in a number of states is 16. Missouri is one. They may not be breaking any law at all. Their behavior may be in poor taste, but that's generally not a crime. I recall the rape case in Okinawa a few years back where a bunch of marines attacked a young schoolgirl. Grabbed her off a bicycle. Still in jail I believe. Not sure their coming out. That tarnishes the image of the Marine Corps, but it does not mean that all Marines are rapists. There is a world of difference between indiviual malfeascence(sp) and illegal behavior that is accepted, condoned or even sponsored institutionally. How stupid does someone have to be to think that in an organization of almost 1 million people, there isn't going to be a certain percentage who are less than desireable? There really is no way to predict criminal behavior in individuals. How contemptable do you have to be to brand a whole institution for the crimes commited by individuals because they're *ssholes. If A had some idealistic vision of american service men and women being some kind of semi-divine superrace, then the fault is his, not the services. The services' crime would be not living up to somebody's unreasonable expectations. The military culture is probably better than most civilian communities of comparable size, but they still have to put locks on their personal gear.
 
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GOP    RE:My idealism shattered/more serious note - Yimmy/Sam   5/26/2005 11:12:06 PM
Shek, then I am wrong. I have no first hand knowledge of any of this, I am just going by what I have read, etc. Sam, I am agree it is wrong. I just didn't catch that that was what you were saying.
 
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   RE:My idealism shattered   2/26/2006 3:51:39 PM
Youre the one who has the problem. Soldiers aren't ideal. Nobody is. Attempting to force some poor sap into a stylized image you've created is unfair to both of you. The reality isn't bad, in fact I think its much better than the Hollywood, John Wayne imagery. They are young kids who joined for all the wrong reasons and have the unfortunate task of growing up quick once some backwards towelhead starts shooting at them. But, against all odds, and as a testament both to the human spirit and to the quality of their training and equipment, they succeed in doing just that. And the enemy gets the poo kicked out of him. Hooah!
 
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