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Subject: Consensus?
carrier_monkey@hotmail.com    4/29/2001 11:03:15 PM
Dan,
Apparently you don't get out much. I agree with you on the firearms issue, as I do believe it is a last resort in desperate times, however, you evidently haven't looked into the new administrations efforts at refitting our military with 'nice' stuff. To fully understand the big picture, you must remove yourself from the micro stance you're comfortable in, and look at the world objectively. Think of it this way: you were born randomly to your position in life. You could've just as randomly been born Russian, Chinese, British or Cuban. It amazes me when people like yourself seem to 'have things figured out' when in reality, you're basking in your habitus. You're basking in your own created world. You're glorying in your own created god. You're only an American because you were lucky. You're only a capitalist because you're American. You're only Christian because you were likely raised that way or identify with the people associated with that particular religion. The only reason you believe the things you do is because of your context. You ARE a product of your society, and it is far too evident for you to accept what I've written here. Feel free to reply to me here or privately. I'm not trying to insult you, but keep in mind, every person in every part of this world has no more worth, or no less worth than you. The only thing that makes you American is luck. Being a citizen of this country is 'right' enough to call one's self an American. There's nothing that makes us more 'special' or 'god's chosen people' or right. The only thing that makes you human is luck. The only thing that makes you humane is the realization that we are all here to help eachother and accept eachother, not draw borders and lines of rejection. Morale is a buzz-word that illustrates the warm-fuzzies we get from having the best shit--and knowing that we will kill everyone that opposes us. Where do our values lie? Where do your values lie? Peace? Evidently not.
 
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Dan    RE:Consensus?   5/1/2001 11:35:35 AM
"The only thing that makes you human is luck. The only thing that makes you humane is the realization that we are all here to help eachother and accept eachother, not draw borders and lines of rejection." Maybe you don't get out much bub. I live in Detroit. Maybe everything is nicey nicey wrapped up in a box with a bow on top for you, but not for me. I've had my share of crap in life who hasn't? So don't give me your B.S. to make yourself look good. If you think while living in Cuba, China, Vietnam, Peru, or Russia means you will somehow not experience tribulation of some sort and gives you an excuse to chaos then you need to travel. People don't give a crap pal and that's reality. Nice philosophy you have there but it's fantasy. Do your part to help and make a difference but don't expect people to care or to help you. If you believe that your human by luck then you haven't even begun to live. You need to realize that you have a purpose in this life and that you are not a concept of luck that is also a fantasy. "It amazes me when people like yourself seem to 'have things figured out' when in reality, you're basking in your habitus. You're basking in your own created world." This is not my created world this is America and yes to live in America is better than living in Russia, Cuba or China, but that is my personal opinion. Here I have more freedom and a better way of life. "You're glorying in your own created god. You're only an American because you were lucky. You're only a capitalist because you're American. You're only Christian because you were likely raised that way or identify with the people associated with that particular religion." I didn't create God I found God to bad you don't understand the difference. Yes I am fortunate to be an American. I don't believe in luck. I am a capitalist because I have my own business and struggled damn hard to build one! I understand what it means to be a capitalist compared to those who have never labored or CANNOT labor for that goal. I am a christian because I chose to accept Christ as my savior not because someone influenced me, asked me to, or converted me. "You ARE a product of your society, and it is far too evident for you to accept what I've written here." No one is a product of society. Stalin and Marx would have you believe that. They would also have you believe that men can live in peace if everything is equal. Jealousy is of the heart and the corruption of this world lies in the heart of man. Marx did not believe in heart he believed in what he did not have and tried to set this as standard for everyone else. Freedom is a standard to live by not just equality. All things being equal man will still be evil. I am a product of my experience and I thank God for them. "Morale is a buzz-word that illustrates the warm-fuzzies we get from having the best shit--and knowing that we will kill everyone that opposes us." Morale is knowing your buddy next to you will jump in front of the bullet for you. Morale is knowing that your leaders are competent, able and moral by experience. Morale is living in freedom not in tyranny, a dictatorship, and is why we defeated the British. If you put your confidence in technology, men, or government you will fail. Put your confidence in God, in doing what is right and by God we all make mistakes but stand back up and never let another tell you - you can't be free, or you can't obtain your dreams. However if your dreams are to do evil many lives including your own can be destroyed. Everyone has the decision of how they spend their lives either in freedom or in tyranny or in faith. Faith is the substance of things not yet seen and brings forth hope. And if one should fail to realize freedom and fail to realize his faith and hope let him fail in the fight in the arena so he cannot be as the cold timid souls who stand idly by watching. "Where do our values lie? Where do your values lie? Peace? Evidently not." My values lie in God, my family, my country, and I will respect every man that does not jeopardize my values. Peace is what I make between me and God there is no real peace in this world.
 
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carrier_monkey    RE:Consensus?   5/1/2001 5:43:18 PM
Dan, The last reason I'd post anything on a list with an anonymous e-mail would be to make myself look good, get warm fuzzies, etc. I was attempting to acertain as to where your values lie, and you've made that exceptionally clear. As far as getting out, I have access to information that enables me to build a particular view of how the world is. I do NOT, however, claim to be an expert. I'm mearly another point of view to consider. The point of Russia, China, Peru or any other country needing an "excuse" for chaos is ridiculous. The only reason that they're the way they are and we're the way we are is that our government seems to work better than theirs. I will not deny the benefits that we enjoy as Americans. I value the virtues of freedom that we have, and I will agree that this is the best place to live in the entire world. Do not make the mistake of questioning my integrity or my patriotism. Four years ago I was scraping by on 7 bucks an hour working in a body shop. Now I'm a college graduate, and I will soon be flying F-16s for the USAF. I'm awaiting my OTS dates. Do not question my loyalty. I can understand why you refuse to entertain these ideas--they're carry interesting implications. I do live in the real world, and while you may be right in that I'll be going at this solo, please don't stand against me when peace seems inevitable. I would agree that there are countries that don't want peace. There are countries that don't like us. It's purely because they hold different values than we do, but we're the superpower. Many countries in the world view us as an overbearing tyrant, forcing our values around the globe. In a way, they're right. When our country's interests are at stake, here we come, cramming GBU-10s up their ass... Why? To keep our gas prices low. Not to "liberate" anybody. If the situation that evolved into the gulf war happened in sub-saharan Africa, we would never have sent that many troops, if any. Take the Hutus and Tutsis in Burundi. We sent dudes to Somalia for a similar situation, and that was a shitstorm. That was a product of CNN. The Tutsis slaughtered the Hutus. Chopped up women and children with machetes. We didn't do anything. Why? No interest. Send forces, endanger lives for Oil? Yes. Human life? Nope. Your values--God, family, country... those are good values. "I will respect every man that does not jeopardize my values." That's probably what native Americans said. Too bad we had better weapons. "Peace is what I make between me and God there is no real peace in this world." That sounds like a vindication of effort. You, like many others have convinced yourself that you can't change anything (or won't). I think that's an injustice in itself (my opinion). Thanks for your challenge, Dan. Sincerely, a fellow American
 
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jastayme3    RE:Consensus?   3/15/2005 6:45:18 PM
Doesn't it go both ways? What carriermonkey said could apply equaly well to him couldn't it? Is he somehow freed from his own nature and nurture? And in any case the falsehood of a given view and a given persons psychological inclination to accept it are not the same. Whether or not someone was raised to believe something does not make it necessarily decide whether it is true or false. I was raised to believe 2+2=4.
 
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Commander    RE:Consensus?   3/25/2005 3:11:42 AM
carrier_monkey Your right about the situation. From my observation no nation will risk itself for what it calls charity. No nation will risk men for charity. My question is firstly why is the United States making friends with the Saudis? Why they deny human rights and yet the US is friendly with them. The answer is the Saudis control the biggest oil supplies in the world if the Saudis suddenly cut it for no reason the world market would fall.
 
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