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Subject: LEADERSHIP: Jessica Lynch Was Not Prepared for Combat
Texican    8/18/2003 2:55:15 PM
Mr Guillory,

I agree there were leadership failures here but I think you're looking in the wrong place. Go back to the accounts of PFC Lynch's fellow soldiers which stated that their weapons were so jammed with sand they would not fire. It had nothing to do with aiming, driving, or qualifications, but BASIC TRAINING which teaches that that no matter what, a soldier's weapon weapon must be properly lubricated to prevent rust. The problem is that this very necessary rule does not take into account exceptionally cold environments (Korea in winter) or exceptionally sandy environments (Iraq and the KTO) in which a soldiers weapon can fail to function due to even normal levels of lubricant use and that is what happened here. Further the same tale is told by various combat units as well (a story from a Fox News analyst who was a loader in an Abrams during Desert Storm being unable to close the ammo door as he went into combat because it was clogged with sand, thus endangering his tank and crew is typical of this, and he was TRAINED for combat). A few extra minutes of instruction on when NOT to lubricate and how to strip the old lubricant out of the weapons could have saved lives or at least given the 507th a fighting chance before they ever got near the enemy.

Furthermore, if you and the grunts on the ground in Iraq want someone to blame, might I suggest the S-3 who didn't properly plan the use of MP's at key intersections that might have prevented this incident from occurring the in the first place? Traffic control is their job after all and if it wasn't worked into the planning, we should ask why. How about flank security elements, could a 10 second conversation when in doubt have saved lives?

Before we in our comfortable homes and offices go second guessing the grunts on the ground too hard, let's also factor in a few other things. First of all, like most support elements, it's always understrength (meaning more work and longer hours for everyone), and with a major offensive looming as well as the threat of what was believed to be SCUD NBC attacks, the 507th was far too busy preparing both their combat unit and their own equipment to be worrying about whether or not their M16's were properly maintained (perhaps anti-dust bags and ?don't open till you really NEED it or you see rust? instructions might help here?). Fighting is the job of combat units after all, which is why support units don't lead the way. Second, everyone was operating on little to no sleep for the 48-72 hours pre-invasion, degrading their critical thinking skills and ability to function when it counted most. Now factor in route maps with (most likely) no land marks specified and you have the standard formula for wrong turns in unfamiliar terrain (with today's photo recon capabilities and the availability of computer hardware and printing facilities to distribute it, I am strongly tempted to ask why support units aren't provided with some low resolution photos to go with the maps for situations like this). The SNAFU factor is always present, and that day it hit the 507th. I for one am not going to dump too hard on them past what I have said, but if you still think they should have more combat training, I would suggest teaching all support units exactly one unit combat drill: a break contact and return to friendly lines drill that requires little practice and less of a support unit's critical maintenance time.

Soldiers are human beings and there are only 24 hours in the day to accomplish mission critical tasks and if you expect support elements to be able to do their essential jobs and be effective combat soldiers you are living in a dream world, so let the grunts bitch and let the staff officers and instructors conduct a few more pre-combat preparations/training and maybe, just maybe, the problem will take care of itself and we'll save some lives in the process.
 
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:LEADERSHIP: Jessica Lynch Was Not Prepared for Combat   8/18/2003 4:36:57 PM
Overall I'm gonna have to disagree with some of what you say. The fact that the weapons were not kept clean is the fault of the NCOs. Thats thier job. You have valid points about the MPs, the Captain screwed up, etc, etc. Even so, support unit or not, you don't go into a hostile enviornment without a clean weapon. Not to mention the fact that the machine guns were not cleaned as well. But the blame for that is on the shoulders of the NCOs. The thing about the lack of sleep. Its one of those lessons that you learn in combat. The things you do in peacetime training, don't work in real world combat. You don't push green troops that way. They are not smart enough to know what the limits are. Now is when you blame the officers, especially the company and field grade officers. If wargamers can understand the effect that constant movement has on readiness, then whats the officers excuse? The other issue that pisses me off, is the medals. Issuing medals has become a joke in the last 20 years or so, but even in todays world, there were only one or two people who deserved a Bronze Star. There are quite a few people who have been in alot more firefights during Iraq that won't get a medal. Thats ok, they are not suppossed to be easy to obtain. But the fact that the 507th got so many Bronze Stars is a slap in the face to those who saw combat.
 
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StymiestxBlitz    RE:LEADERSHIP: Jessica Lynch Was Not Prepared for Combat   8/18/2003 6:07:21 PM
I agree with you on this issue Shaka
 
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StymiestxBlitz    RE:LEADERSHIP: Jessica Lynch Was Not Prepared for Combat   8/18/2003 6:07:22 PM
I agree with you on this issue Shaka
 
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Thomas    RE:LEADERSHIP: Jessica Lynch Was Not Prepared for Combat   8/19/2003 1:38:56 AM
Me too Shaka. The reason for campaign medals is to recognise participation in a campaign. Medals for bravery and such are a different thing. About the weapons: There is no excuse for a non-functioning personal weapon - they would have been ejected from the Homeguard in Denmark for that - and that is difficult.
 
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phoage    RE:LEADERSHIP: Jessica Lynch Was Not Prepared for Combat   8/19/2003 2:44:30 AM
The Duke of Wellington said two things about the common soldier that relate to this; They are the scum of the earth, enlisted for drink and plunder, and There are no bad soldiers, only bad officers. This is an indication of a leadership problem and those are the only known case where the crap rolls uphill. The soldiers of the 507th should have checked their weapons for functionality and proper maintenance. Hell, they aare a maintenance unit. The NCOs should have checked. The soldiers did not have the habit beat into them during basic because anything resembling beating (physically or otherwise) is not allowed. The NCOs didn't check, and may not have known to check because they never had that example set for them and probably were never told or shown. All this stuff had to be developed before deployment. Units fight the way they train. Did anyone (Plt Ldr, CO, 1st Sgt) check to see if the NCOs had checked during training? The Lt had maybe 3 yrs military experience. If his plt Sgt or Sqd ldrs didn't train him, how would he know? The CO had maybe seven years experience. Did anyone ever show him? It would almost certainly have ahd to be an NCO, this is an NCO function. The 1SG should have known, right? 20-25 years in the service. He would have gotten in in 1978-83. Viet Nam was just over, the Army didn't have the draft, we have to compete with the civilian sector for people and the pay is not great nor are the benefits. People who go in are "baby killers" Basic is dumbed down to keep from washing people out who are desperately needed. Can't yell or hit, or haze the troops or you get court marshelled. Maybe the 1SG knew and maybe not. Even if he did, did he get the support of his officers? Did their superiors support them? Finally we get to where the buck stops; George W. But he has only been in office a year. This goes back to Ford and Carter and beyond. Talk about ripples. It taskes a long time to build a winning Army and it only takes a little while to ruin it. Having said that, We ate talking about one of the most lopsided wars in history. Our total casualty list wouldn't make a decent riot in most countries. All the casualties and damage on both sides is minimal (except to those effected). We have a winning military. It is not perfect. It ios still made up of human beings. It still has room for improvement. The mellenium has not yet arrived.
 
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Thomas    RE:LEADERSHIP: Jessica Lynch Was Not Prepared for Combat   8/20/2003 5:04:57 AM
Let's stick to the simple explanation. God knows I'm not infantry, but aircraft spotter, and our personal arms training was one evening plus sunday on the range - so we wouldn't hurt ourselves to much. As NCO the weapons drill was similarly measured in hours. As we thought the basic training was to little we got a weekend. If you can train people basic maintainance under these circumstances, and you could as there was no more mismaintained weapons in the home guard, where people keep the guns at home, than in the regular service - there is no explanation or excuse.
 
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macawman    RE:LEADERSHIP: Jessica Lynch Was Not Prepared for Combat   8/20/2003 1:27:31 PM
Thomas: There is a plausible explanation for this UNIT debacle. The US Army has created two standards for basic soldier training. One is co-ed with lower military/physical stds. for rear area troops ie. Ft Jackson, SC. Most of the other Basic Training schools are dedicated to the combat arms profession and thus are male oriented with tougher military skill requirements. Why did the Army do this and not the Marine Corps? The peacetime "PC" Army Generals at the Pentagon took the "path of least resistance" in dealing with Congress and women's rights groups.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:LEADERSHIP: Jessica Lynch Was Not Prepared for Combat   8/20/2003 3:41:07 PM
From first hand experience with 3rd ID's DISCOM and reserve CS/CSS units mobilizing through Fort Stewart, I'm going to have to disagree with Texican and agree with Shaka on this. From what I've seen, basic soldier skills for combat are woefully inadequate in CSS units and, at least in the full time units, I don't buy that there is not any time to train on fundamentals. From what I saw of 3rd ID DISCOM, sergeants' time, when these sort of skills could be learned or relearned, was under-utilized. I don't know if it was the same way for the 507th out at Hood. This goes for officers as well, though -- you have some guys in maintenance and support units who have reclassed from combat arms, but most (I believe) are career Ordnance or Transportation Corps types with equally minimal training in terms of combat skills.
 
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Thomas    RE:macawman   8/21/2003 1:32:30 AM
Different levels - my foot! I'm talking of the Observer Corps of the Danish Home Guard, that with respect to infantry skills is below "everything" - and they can keep the thing working.
 
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AlbanyRifles    Company Commander   8/21/2003 7:00:31 AM
Bottomline: Company Commander did not insure his soldiers were ready for combat. Poor weapons maintenace. Poor land navigation (the only reason we ever heard of the 507 MT CO is because the company commander couldn't/can't read a map). Poor leadership...among the officers. 1SG & Junior NCOs get a salute from me. But you read about how warrant officers were in the convoy, and though senior, allowed younger and more inexperienced NCOs take charge. All of this is at the feet of that company commander.
 
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:Company Commander   8/21/2003 2:25:58 PM
AlbanyRifles Company commander screwed up royally. I tried not to bring it up since I emphatize with they guy. I am sure he will have emotional problems over this, not to mention his military career is over. But his land navigation sucked, he screwed up more than once, having missed the turn and once they turned around, missed another turn requiring them to turn around again. The biggest sin, one that shouldn't be forgiven, is the conduct of the unit. My reading inbetween the lines of the 15 page report tells me that the unit broke and ran. Thats how the column got fragemented into so many different sections. Especially since the Captain, if I remember right, was in one of the lead sections, the one that found the Marines. You're right about the NCOs though. I don't remember the names, but the one who went back to find the missing people and kept picking up different weapons that jammed. I think there were two who in my mind are the only ones who deserve a Bronze (with a V) for thier actions. Then there was one Pvt or PFC who didn't stop fighting and escaped or tried to escape capture. Maybe not Bronze Star, but damn sure a commendation for bravery. The Warrent Officers I don't know what to make of. I realize that have the rank because of "technical" expertise. But with the privileges comes responsiblities. If they couldn't do anything else, at least catch bullets from the front and set a good example.
 
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bayonetbrant    RE:Company Commander/Warrant Officers   8/22/2003 11:36:57 AM
<> Warrant Officers are not there to lead in combat. They are not elegible for command, do not have command or leadership authority and exist outside the chain of command. After all the officers go down, the next in line is the 1SG or senior surviving platoon sergeant, not the warrants. It's all in the AR dealing with warrants.
 
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macawman    RE:Company Commander/Warrant Officers   8/22/2003 3:50:13 PM
I agree that WOs should be a TECHNICAL and not tactical leadership position. (SF is a different story) But,in about the mid 90s, the Army changed the description of a WO to that of a leadership role making them sort a speak "3rd Lt.s" The Army even pulled some MI 03 school company cadre positions and made them W-4 slots which made WOs popular with the O-3s. I am hoping that the conversion WOs to command tactical leadership positions is a passing phase and thus let the WOs do what Warrant Officers are qualified for. This is the reason most of us opted for the WO Corps was to stay proficient at our job and to train others to do the same.
 
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desertdog    RE: Shaka and NCO's   8/22/2003 7:44:53 PM
I am curious as to how Shaka comes up with its the NCO's responsibility to make sure the weapons are clean. Most of your posts seem based on research and fact but in this case it seems not to be. I don't mean to attack you but to blame NCO's is wrong. It is the responsibility of the soldier to ensure there weapon is clean and functioning. Without being there its hard to second guess how this could of happened. If the weapon was rusty some heads should roll, and not the soldiers, nor the NCO's. This is a problem with the top leaders, it is up to them to ensure that the troops are ready for war and that includes inspections to ensure there weapons are clean. There should of been platoon level inspections, company level inspections, battalion level, regiment, division, on to commanding general inspections. Weapons dont rust overnight.
 
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desertdog    RE:On the issue of weapons   8/22/2003 7:53:56 PM
This in not an issue of weapons, the soldiers should inspect there own weapon to make sure it functions. If there is to much sand or rust in the weapon the individual soldier is not doing there job. Rust does not form overnight on a properly maintained weapon nor does sand.
 
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