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Subject: Hal Moore
Massive    1/15/2004 8:59:45 AM
Quick question:

Why would someone with that sort of combat experience not make it past Colonel.

To be chosen to trial air mobile combat he must have been highly regarded. But not highly regarded enough for a star.

Anyone know?
 
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macawman    RE:Hal Moore got his stars.   1/17/2004 9:57:46 AM
link
 
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mike_golf    RE:Hal Moore   1/18/2004 5:10:25 PM
Hal Moore is probably one of the best tactical leaders the US has seen in the past century. He deserved every award he got and every start he put on. His performance at Ia Drang was simply magnificent. And the issue was in serious doubt, at one point his unit was in danger of being overrun, split into pieces and defeated in detail. If you only saw the movie, you need to read the book. "We Were Soldiers Once ... And Young" should be on every soldier's reading list, and every military buff as well.
 
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Zerbrechen    RE:Hal Moore   2/5/2004 11:00:36 PM
If you ever read Col. Charlie Beckwith's book, he sure didn't have any kind words to say about Moore. I'm not taking sides, but not everyone seemed to like Col. Moore. Charlie Beckwith formed Delta Force.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Hal Moore   2/5/2004 11:10:25 PM
I think the issue here is the difference between a conventional infantry soldier and a special operations soldier. Both of these soldiers have outstanding reputations within the US Army, just in different areas. Both of them were living legends when I joined the Army and well respected.
 
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buffalohunter    RE:Hal Moore   2/6/2004 10:31:56 AM
Another point to make is why go into the Ia Drang in a head on assault?
 
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mike_golf    RE:Hal Moore   2/6/2004 10:12:13 PM
He didn't go into Ia Drang in a head on assault. He seized an LZ to bring his battalion into in order to try and find and fix the enemy. He did not know that the vietnamese commander intended this as an ambush or that he was coming head on into them. You can blame the intelligence available to him and his brigade commander for that.
 
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   RE:Hal Moore   2/6/2004 11:10:46 PM
According to the book, he was ordered into Ia Drang to S&D a "handful of NVD stragglers" who'd staged a a handful of hit and run jobs on an American firebase. Intel never said anything about their being an entire enemy division to "attack head on.""
 
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mike_golf    RE:Hal Moore   2/7/2004 12:37:51 AM
Exactly. Hal Moore was ambushed by forces that he didn't know existed due to poor intelligence on the part of his higher headquarters. Given that he was tremendously outnumbered (an NVA division vs. his battalion), fighting top notch troops, fighting on poor terrain, and lacking the ability to bring in reinforcements due to the LZ he did a magnificent job. His tactical abilities and leadership, and the high level of training that his battalion had allowed him to break an ambush that should have overrun his battalion. Charlie Beckwith is a huge, legendary figure in the US Army. He is a magnificent special ops leader. He is not a conventional infantry battalion commander. Just as I would take anything Hal Moore said about Delta with a grain of salt, I consider the source when I listen to what Beckwith says about Hal Moore.
 
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Timurlane    RE:Hal Moore   2/11/2004 10:31:10 PM
All of the best warriors I have known have had an ego (on the higher end of the spectrum) to one extent or another. By nature, they are 'take charge' individuals. You will often find throughout history very highly regarded soldiers having low opinions of equally highly regarded contempories. While I know little about the relationship between Gen. Moore and Col. Beckwith, sounds a little like 'two s in a hen house' to me.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Hal Moore   2/11/2004 10:58:55 PM
Timurlane wrote: "While I know little about the relationship between Gen. Moore and Col. Beckwith, sounds a little like 'two s in a hen house' to me" Yeah, that's probably the case. I also suspect that the two of them ran into each other and rubbed each other the wrong way.
 
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Zerbrechen    RE:Hal Moore v. Charlie Beckwith   2/11/2004 11:31:07 PM
This is Charlie Beckwith's side of the story, taken from his book 'Delta Force -The Army's Elite Counterterrorist Unit' The book was printed after his death. On page 86... "I got a few minutes in a coordination meeting with Lt. Col. Hal Moore. I told him, 'I'll have teams on the ground by last light tomorrow. Three will go in first to test the waters, then I'll send in others. I believe the An Loa Valley is full of VC.' 'That's fine." he said. 'You go find them and I'll come kill them.' And on page 90... "Lonnie also told me what happened to the three recon teams after I got hit. The first team had come up on the radio early, the one which was not engagesd, got out O.K. The other two, the ones I tried to reach, were not as fortunate. The 1st Cav made no effort to help them after I went down. Seven men were killed. The others hid in the jungle and eventually made their way out." "Hal Moore, the CO of the Cav's 3rd Brigade, the guy had once said, 'You find them, I'll kill them.' came around once and visited with his soldiers. I knew damn well he knew I was in that hospital, but he never said a word to me. I was wounded while supporting his brigade." I never heard if Col. Moore ever responded to this.
 
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WinsettZ    RE:Hal Moore    2/16/2004 2:58:46 PM
"Late in the afternoon of Saturday, 13 Nov, the 3rd Brigade Commander, COL Thomas Brown, gave the 1st Bn, 7th Cavalry commander, Lt. Col Hal Moore orders to move his battalion on 14 Nov into the Ia Drang Valley with the mission: "Find and kill the enemy". Moore would have 16 Huey helicopters to move his unit. Two 105 mm Howitzer batteries (12 tubes) to render fire support. Three battalions of PAVN were reported to be in the Valley." link They knew from the start they would be outnumbered: based on how that looks, you could say that Moore's unit was a lightning rod. They knew the Chu Pong massif area was being used as a base of some sort. After the attack on the CIDG camp, they tried to find them, and decided a lightning rod would be the best way to do it, to force the NVA to battle. They expected three battalions. In any case, how badly were they outnumbered IRL? The NVA had two or three regiments in the area: but how exactly does that match up against a battalion? Best bet is two or three battalions per regiment, which makes it four, six, or nine to 1.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Hal Moore    2/16/2004 3:47:56 PM
Okay, so the intel said 3 battalions of NVA. During Vietnam, or today, we would expect that an American infantry battalion would be a match for 3 battalions of relatively lightly armed local infantry. The NVA at most would have organic manportable mortars for fire support, while the American unit would have howitzers, helicopter gunships and CAS, in addition to their organic mortars. This battle wouldn't have been a big deal if the NVA only had the three battalions on the ground. Instead, as seems likely, the NVA had 3 regiments, each with 3 battalions. So Hal Moore was facing 3 times what he expected. And the NVA attacked before he could get his entire battalion on the ground, so he was probably facing as much as 12 times his own force. Several things saved him. CAS, helicopter gunships and indirect fire were huge force multipliers, all things considered he probably had about 40% of the firepower that the NVA commander had. The NVA commander was not able, for a variety of reasons, to mass his entire force at one time, so Moore's battalion generally only faced about 40% of the NVA force at any given time. Of course, because the LZ was very difficult to get into, and was blocked by wreckage at times, Moore couldn't get much in the way of reinforcements or resupply. Finally, Hal Moore is an outstanding tactical commander who inspired and led his troops against incredible odds. He continuously used his interior lines of movement to reinforce whatever part of his perimeter was threatened and managed to keep a reserve throughout most of the battle. Bottom line is that a lesser commander would very likely have been overrun and lost a significant portion of his unit.
 
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hector    RE:Hal Moore    3/29/2004 5:11:36 PM
Lt General, I'm Colonel Hector Gallardo of te Argentine Army and also I teach tactics to the cadets of the Military Academy in my country. The next Thursday, april 1st, I will show the movie We were Soldiers, for analisse the battle, and the tactics lidership in combat. My question for you is if you can send a messege for my students about your experience there and your thougth about the tactics lidership. remember that my students will be the next generals in my army. Please forgive my for my english, sinceriuslly Colonel Gallardo
 
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mike_golf    RE:Hal Moore - Hector   3/29/2004 11:53:42 PM
I don't believe that LTG Hal Moore is actually on this board.
 
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