American Military Officer CASTE system?

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AlbanyRifles RE:American Military Officer CASTE system? 2/17/2006 10:10:34 AM

They were all products of West Point so they had equal opportunities. MacArthur had some advantage being the son of a Medal of Honor awardee. Patton did come from the privileged class.....but I the vast number of officers came from modest backgrounds...and being the son of an Army officer was a very modest background, indeed. And if this was a bad thing how do you account for the greatest non West Pointer...George C. Marshall? Also, going against this...how many career military officers were the sons (and now days, daughters) of career NCOs? If there was a true caste system this would never happen.

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shek RE:American Military Officer CASTE system? 2/17/2006 10:31:41 AM

And the counterexample to AR - how many father/son (or daughter) pictures do you see from Iraq where the father is an officer and the kid is enlisted? I know that I've come across numerous. If anything, I would agree that there is a strong tradition in the US of having military families, but it's not so confined that it expresses it self through service solely in a particular service and only within the officer corps. Lastly, I haven't seen or experienced any "West Point Good Ol' Boys Network," which supposedly existed in decades past (I'm not trying to imply that it didn't exist - I just don't know enough about the topic to point to specific time frames and how extensive it was). I could have cared less about the commissioning source of my LTs as a commander - my only concern was whether or not they could effectively lead their platoons.

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AlbanyRifles RE:American Military Officer CASTE system? 2/17/2006 11:06:51 AM

Shek Great point about enlisted offspring of officers. To some it sounds like soem something from the days of The Raj or the Empire for the "bad" son but it is alive and well in our military. As for the WPPA (West Point Protective Association) I saw some of it early in my career but it disappeared by the time I was in company command. The first battalion I was assigned to was deep in Southern Germany....I rolled in a doofy ROTC graduate. I didn't realize that West Point graduates were allowed to pick their assignments. My unit's nickname was the West Point Ski Club! Far and away the finest officer in that battalion was a West Pointer....as was the absolute worst officer in the brigade.

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shek RE:American Military Officer CASTE system? - AR 2/17/2006 11:37:49 AM

I'm sure I've already posted this, but my experience has always been that the OCS grads are either awesome or downright horrendous - there's no in between, and that ROTC and West Pointers run the whole range (I'm a West Pointer, BTW). I would say that while West Pointers run the whole range, I think that there are fewer in the lower range compared to ROTC just because graduating from West Point requires a little more work and provides more experience at the O-0 (O nothing) level, and so it will tends to weed out more of your lesser performers. My company was very interesting - of my 12 LTs, all but 2 had been prior service, and 2 of my LTs were in their mid-30s who had married into instant-families while at OBC at Benning, but that's a different story altogether. I actually only had 1 USMA grad, which was a fluke since about 1/3 of the battalion were USMA comissionees.

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AlbanyRifles RE:American Military Officer CASTE system? -Shek 2/17/2006 11:46:19 AM

So you went to the South Hudson Institute of Technology, eh? When I was a company XO, I was ROTC, my commander and 2 PLs were WP, 1 PL was Notre Dame and the Weapons PL was Dartmouth....I sure didn't fit in!!!! When I was a commander my PLs came from WP, VMI, Citadel, Norwich & Texas A&M...and I sent three soldiers to OCS. Your right....there is no 1 answer.

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DarthAmerica RE:American Military Officer CASTE system? 2/17/2006 11:52:56 AM

Well I have to say I saw both worlds coexisting. I'm the son of a Enlisted Marine and I became an Army Officer through merit and advanced on merit. My dad was already out when I joined and I made all my friends and professional contacts by random chance. I always felt as if I was given equal opportunity. But I also saw and worked with several "annointed" ones who had things sort of mapped out in advance. As long as they didnt F up too bad then they were on the fast track.

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shek RE:American Military Officer CASTE system? -Shek 2/17/2006 11:56:34 AM

As a rifle PL, all the PLs were West Point, and the XO and CO were ROTC. Later on, I had a BN CDR who used to always crack jokes about West Pointers. I actually felt somewhat embarassed for him because it seemed like he was jealous or envious for some reason. He was a good guy, but I never really understood it. I think the whole conscious USMA vs. ROTC thing vanished within days of starting IOBC. People are people no matter where you come from - some will always be studs and some will always be duds. Probably the only difference was that many West Pointers partied much more at the beginning of OBC to try to make up for four lost years, while the ROTC guys were like "why? I got tired of going out and drinking a few years back." What was funny was that one of my good friends was a Citadel grad, and his brother had graduated from West Point. So, between those two things, he could rattle stories as if he were a USMA grad, and then after he had other West Point grads going, he'd drop the hammer and let them know that he was actually a Citadel grad. The responses were always priceless.

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shek RE:American Military Officer CASTE system? - Darth 2/17/2006 12:00:04 PM

I'd agree that there are annointed ones, although it really didn't hit overdrive until command, at which point their reputation would precede them. However, since it didn't really affect me, I never got too worked over it - I had enough on my plate to worry about competing with the others. Also, there are some who advance by the reputation of their dad. The worst battalion commander in my brigade is now a brigade commander, probably thanks to dad having four stars, giving him name recognition. The other battalion commanders were only given institutional/training brigades, and so one is now a Mr. and the other is still hanging around because the Army is his life. But, these cases are few and far between.

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Carl S RE:American Military Officer CASTE system? - Darth 2/17/2006 12:15:23 PM

In the Marines I did run across a few to many officer who thought they were a seperate caste. Invariaby they were from upper middle class and wealthy families. Few lasted to captain, & most who did lost that attitude. Still I did run across a LtCol or two who still retained that idea. Cant recall if all of them were Annapolis grads or not. The Marine reserve units I served in were an entirely different matter. A huge portion of the enlisted were college grads and a fair number could claim income in the same range or higher than the officers. They were totally unimpressed with academic & social credentials.

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xylene RE:American Military Officer CASTE system? - Darth 2/17/2006 12:31:20 PM

Although it is rarely spoken about, America has a long history of a defacto caste system. We see it in military families, but we also see it with Fortune 500 companies, movie stars and singers, and most notably politics. I would venture to say it is rare when children break from the shadow of their parents occupation and strike out on their own in a different field. They lose the support system and name recognition. Going back to military, it would be interesting to see the ratio of USMA vs ROTC stay in till retirement. Or see a breakdown of top command positions and see which awere originally USMA or ROTC.

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S-2 RE:American Military Officer CASTE system? 2/17/2006 12:38:30 PM

I was the son of a career Cav. NCO, well gone by my entry. I'm aware of one utterly abysmal Lt. who's career seemed a function of a recently retired father. I swear he couldn't shoot his way out of a wet paper bag, and he was alcoholic to boot. Sh!t happens, on occasion. But in my experience, only rarely. I saw absolutely NO CASTE remnants, much less a thriving underground system. I, instead, saw far more young officers that seemingly came from every walk of life. While at FAOBC, there were hints of the WPPA, it never amounted to anything upon the first duty assignment. I simply never saw this legacy at work. Other militaries may yet possess this distractor, perhaps other branches (USN), though I think not. I note that the individual who suggested this notion has yet to join this discussion, so I look forward to his comments when he does so.

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S-2 RE:Xylene Reply 2/17/2006 12:44:46 PM

"America has a long history of a defacto caste system..." A "caste system" as defacto strikes me as odd. The natural imprintings that many may receive as children, coupled with the calculating exploitation of prrfessional advantage through relationships may be true enough, though it doesn't indicate a consistent network of advancement for privileged individuals, nor the exclusion altogether from those opportunities of others. Moreover, at some point, even those whom have benefited seem to require something substantive about their own abilities to advance into truly rarified air.

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shek RE:Xylene Reply 2/17/2006 12:54:38 PM

If anything, the majority of American kids don't follow in their parents' footsteps. There is not a defacto caste system, although there are certainly prominent families where the kids then tend to the family business when they grow up. My dad saved lives for a living as a doctor. I guess you can say that chose the exact opposite profession by going into the Army . . .

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DarthAmerica RE:American Military Officer CASTE system? - Shek 2/17/2006 1:03:03 PM

Dealing with annointed ones... ...Sometimes its necessary to see what a company level officer >>>I'd agree that there are annointed ones, although it really didn't hit overdrive until command, at which point their reputation would precede them. However, since it didn't really affect me, I never got too worked over it - I had enough on my plate to worry about competing with the others.<<< ---F'ing A. You know I had the misfortune of having an ate up 1SG and an inept Troop Commander when I was doing my Support Platoon Leader Sentence, I also had to wear the XO hat because we were understrength. The Troop Commander was a pure politician almost literally. The 1SG was a drunkard A-Hole who's rank defied all logic but I digress. With all that on my shoulders at the time I had absolutely ZERO time to give a damn about some other officer trying to make a name for himself as long as my OERs were accurate and he stayed out of the way. In fact during that time I often had Command of the Troop when we were in the field and had an acting 1SG. In retrospect it seemed to me that the right people could tell who was and who wasnt carrying their own weight and the situation fixed itself. I think one of the good things about how often the Army moves Officers around is that eventually you get to flush the turds! >>>Also, there are some who advance by the reputation of their dad. The worst battalion commander in my brigade is now a brigade commander, probably thanks to dad having four stars, giving him name recognition. The other battalion commanders were only given institutional/training brigades, and so one is now a Mr. and the other is still hanging around because the Army is his life. But, these cases are few and far between.<<< ---Same here. I cant think of very many instances or even any that affected me in a bad way to be honest.

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DarthAmerica RE:Xylene Reply 2/17/2006 1:09:22 PM

>>>My dad saved lives for a living as a doctor. I guess you can say that chose the exact opposite profession by going into the Army . . .<<< ---My dad was a Marine then a Cop for 30 years. I guess it was kind of natural for me to pick up a gun professionally at some point. My brother chose to go to Hollywood! So its safe to say we made our own paths. But as you said America offers so many opportunities that its not too often where you get a kid getting the red carpet rolled out in front of them in regard to profession.

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