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Subject: How Ukraine Became A Victim
SYSOP    2/26/2015 5:40:38 AM
 
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trenchsol       2/26/2015 7:09:50 AM
Whatever problems Ukraine might have, at least some of them might be solved by allowing Ukraine to purchase new weapons and equipment. However, as we can see, some countries are blocking it, preventing others to sell the equipment.
 
 
 
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gunnergoz       2/26/2015 8:27:50 AM
Ukrainian "errant bombs...have indiscriminately killed thousands of civilians?" Source, please? Even a glance at reports from the area would reveal that such accidental deaths from Ukrainian aircraft might be at most in the dozens, with most civilian deaths coming from indiscriminate artillery and grad rocket fire coming from Russian led mercenary forces. As it is, the Ukrainians have hardly made more than a few score aircraft missions in the past year, with many of them being shot down by Russian AA assets in theater. I can buy the rest of the report, but the claim that "thousands" are being killed by Ukrainian bombs is absolutely unsupportable.
 
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Dangle    what happened to the army   2/26/2015 12:24:19 PM
Ukraine sold 2 whole Russian armies worth of equipment to the "scum of the world". They became the go to people if you needed things but had sanctions problems, how many American allies have been attacked by this equipment? god knows but that's all water under the bridge, 'cos America is a good and loyal friend--ask the kurds who supplied the 155mm gas shells let alone how the cia support flip flopped, this faux outrage and anti Russian bullshit is all about basing US missiles in the Russian belly.
 
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Nate Dog    If we're discussing faux outrage   2/26/2015 6:32:01 PM
then a russian propagandist posting this nonsense here takes the cake.

Hardly the time to bitch and moan about Ukraine selling Soviet equipment to anyone. Russia are the arms whores of the planet, will quite literally sell to anyone as long as their current, or future bank balance allows. Russia, despite being signatory to the Iranian embargo, never stopped selling to them, so your indignation is misplaced. Sure, Ukraine has a track record of corrupt and reprehensible behaviour, doesn't excuse their treatment, doesn't make it acceptable to invade, or to be indignant when Russian's do the exact same thing. There are other things at stake here.

Faux outrage or not. Russia as well as the US and UK all had sovereign treaties to ensure Ukrainian contiguous borders.
All 3 nations are currently breaking those treaties. Russia by being a belligerent and in the midst of a land grab/invasion. US and Uk by not holding up their end of the treaty and coming to Ukraine's rescue. Selling arms and training, while probably not completely meeting with those treaty obligations, would at least be a step in the right direction. (Not as far as mitigating war, quite the opposite) but definitely as far as treaty obligations go… And what are national relations going to be like if none of earths nations uphold their treaties. Anarchy, perennial war. Discord. Disaster.
 
 
As for Russia meeting its treaty obligations…. 
 
Well, Robyn Williams is dead, but comedy didn't die with him, just look at my last statement. 
 
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voland       2/26/2015 10:02:14 PM
i thought i would give a glimpse into the other side, so that not just their "agitprop" (agitation and propaganda) is available.  there are people, small in number, who understand the situation.   the original text is in russian, the link is to google-translated page, so be forgiving of the style.
@nate:  no training will help ukraine.  certainly not in time to stop the russians.  weapons will not help either:  they've been at war for a year and they still do not have military worth a damn. 
 
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gandalf    Food?   2/27/2015 3:39:51 AM
Wait, you feed your soldiers?
 
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Sty0pa       3/2/2015 12:13:38 PM
@ nate: While I might fully agree with the gist of your statement, you're technically incorrect in asserting that states are breaking a 'sovereign treaty' (whatever that is).
 
There was NO treaty involved in the surrender of Ukraine's nukes.  There was a memorandum of agreement, but even at the time of SIGNING everyone (that was paying attention) knew it wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.  It was a trade: Ukr gives up the nukes it could neither use nor operate, in exchange for ongoing basket-case status economically like open ended loans, etc. 
 
It wasn't a formal treaty and that was very, very clear, it didn't have to be ratified by Congress for the US join.
Ergo, everyone knew at the time it was little more than wishful thinking. 
 
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