Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Leadership Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Arab Support For Israel
SYSOP    5/21/2015 5:09:46 AM
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Spiky    OK, not just Arabs   5/21/2015 12:04:02 PM
"Many Arabs now regret this rigorous anti-Israel policy but it has become a part of Arab culture and very difficult to change or even discuss openly.".......... Let's be fair to the Arabs shall we. It isn't just the Arabs who have a ?Israel must be destroyed? policy. For sure, the Iranians (especially the leadership) have it too, and they certainly aren't Arabs; they are mainly Persians by descent. Egypt, though now working with Israel much to their credit, has had a past history of wars with Israel to try to eradicate the fledgling nation: Egyptians are a mix, and many of them will let you know real quick they aren't Arab by descent. Lots of Arabs in the Maghreb, Libya for example, but many also are non-Arabs such as Berbers and other groups. Sudan is definitely no friend of democratic Israel, and they aren't just Arabs but many of them of Nubian descent. To continue, last time I checked "Boko Haram" Nigerians that pledged loyalty to ISIS where not Arabs by descent. Still, we could say, that many people aren't Arabs, but that they do have an Arabic culture. So, the common thread of destruction for Israel isn't the particular group of people (to be fair), but the ideology, since it was the Arabs that spread Islam and its destroy-the-Jew and infidel ideology to the surrounding people nations. Keep in mind all this through history for the most part by sword and force, and not by freedom of choice, as is undeniably happening to this present day.
 
Quote    Reply

Docduracoat       5/22/2015 10:55:51 AM
That is pure wishful thinking. Saudi Arabia funded madrasa schools all over the world are teaching a culture of hate towards Jews and Israel. In one generation, these schools can turn an entire country into supporting Islamic fundamentalism The entire "war on terror" is a war of ideas. It cannot be won with drones and bombs. The United States is losing the war of ideas. I propose we and some Muslim ally (Indonesia/Jordan/?) open a more moderate chain of madrasahs that teach memorizing the Koran and some skill, like computer programming. Then we can see who does better in life in the next generation l
 
Quote    Reply

keffler25       5/22/2015 2:41:24 PM
Might work. I'd rather just discredit Islam, like we did communism and fascism, but that might work.  
 
Quote    Reply

trenchsol       5/23/2015 12:32:02 AM
Good luck, Keffler, with that discrediting. If Islam is going to be discredited like communism, than it has nothing to fear. Caliphate will stand strong. Some people believe that communist menace is gone, but I don't see no evidence of that.
 
A lot of people are preaching that communism needs just 'minor adjustments' and will 'work this time'. Many seem to believe them. Yes, Soviet Union is gone, that's a relief. But, never, even in darkest days, any NATO member country switched to communism until recently, when Greece did that. Ruling coalition is assembled from several Maoist and Trotskist parties, not even Marxist-Leninist. Spain can suffer the same fate. 
 
Spiky, I believe that hostility towards Israel in some circles in Europe is not far behind Arabs. Sweden might be a good example, but not the only one. They are considering recognition of Palestinian state without condition that Palestinians recognize Israel.
 
In 90's it might looked like some problems were solved, but those times are long gone.
Time to wake up.
 
 
Quote    Reply

avatar3    Moving On   5/23/2015 6:23:33 AM
Jews have faced the hostility of Europe for more then 1500 years. But the actions of Europeans are now limited by their inability to bring leverage on large numbers of Jews that used to be captive in there population. Further, no European nation has the will or military ability to force Israel to the table. Westerners should not deceive themselves, Israel is not locked into ties with the West. India, China, Russia and a host of Asian Nations are all interested in what they are selling. Information, weapons, education, finance and developmental technologies are all being sold and marketed by them everyday and anyplace they can get in. What comes from Arab countries? Oil, Islamic Fundamentalism, Weapons sales, huge numbers of refugees and blame for everything and anything. In the 90's their was an outflow of educated Jews from Russia, they brought technology. The outflow is now beginning from France, this time accompanied by capital that will serve to further strengthen the Jewish State. Except for family ties Arabs have few loyalties, today's treaty will be tomorrows toilet paper. The Saud family will do what benefits them, all other considerations will be secondary. The further fragmentation of the Levant will create numbers of little mini-states -all beggars - all religious and all weak. Once war, poverty and plague have taken toll the Arabs may then again be able to start fresh.
 
Quote    Reply

Nate Dog    Pragmatism   5/23/2015 6:37:16 AM
The Fauds are nothing if not pragmatic, and as the saying goes, "as Wadyia goes, so goes the arab world" :)
 
Saudi led recognition could well tip the balance, coupled with non madras education, and a very large portion of the population being young with access to the internet... May happen.
 
For its part Israel needs to be more pragmatic to help such a fad. Should it give the Palestinians at least the modicum of a state it would allow Arab leaders the leeway to at least try to push this agenda. 
At least that's the idealist in me.
As for Euro anti-semitism, that's a problem nearly as old as Islamic antisemitism. Jews spread into Europe with the spread of the Roman empire, and Europeans have been persecuting them ever since.
Old habits die hard. Sure added muslim population isn't helping the cause, but realistically, the European issue is a much older problem. America is the one place to never have such issues with its Jewish population. Likely because America has always been formed of minorities of some form or other, so a polyglot society was much more inclusive.
 
Maybe i'm talking shit but the Arab world needs Israel as a germ of stability with the ability to fight off extremists, on which to build a stable platform. How else can they stop this destabilisation. Egypt and Jordan have managed to stay stable countries despite being bordered by failed countries with the affinity to spread bedlam. Syria spread into Iraq, yet only spilled over into Lebanon, despite having much closer interaction with Lebanon than it ever had with Iraq. 
Likely Israel is expending effort to contain the problems away from its borders, that means keeping those countries whole. Imagine what they could do should they actually be publicly trying... 
 
Quote    Reply

keffler25       5/23/2015 11:24:24 AM
The Greeks have been leftist socialist so long, that stamping communist on the various regimes would have been accurate as far back as 1954. That's not really a valid case.
 
Chinese communists are actually fascists.
 
Current Russia is a fascist corporate state as near as I can tell.
 
What passes for government in a lot of Muslem nations is actually mixed among the forms of potentate monarchy, flat out military caudillo type dictatorships, or theo-fascism (Italian model).
 
Surprising as it is, IRAN, is still the closest middle eastern Moslem state to a representative republic. (Used to be Turkey.) It's still ruled by the theo-fascist oligarchs in the fascist council model (a la the Mussolini prototype) but at the local level, there is an actual  multiparty representative system in place that just needs someone to SECULARIZE it.  
 
If you want to fear COMMUNISM as meant by Marx and Engels, despite our European cousins forays into that nuttery they call socialism (in the French, English and Spanish models which is not actual communism, but an actual bureaucratic state welfarism masquerading as socialism to preserve the privileged ruling classes and lock in European social stratification), you should look at the United States, where pure class warfare politics is currently alive and well. Here is where there is a danger of the dictatorship of the party.     
 
I'm a leftist by inclination and temperament, but even I KNOW MY HISTORY.  
A lot of people are preaching that communism needs just 'minor adjustments' and will 'work this time'. Many seem to believe them. Yes, Soviet Union is gone, that's a relief. But, never, even in darkest days, any NATO member country switched to communism until recently, when Greece did that. Ruling coalition is assembled from several Maoist and Trotskist parties, not even Marxist-Leninist. Spain can suffer the same fate. 
Spiky, I believe that hostility towards Israel in some circles in Europe is not far behind Arabs. Sweden might be a good example, but not the only one. They are considering recognition of Palestinian state without condition that Palestinians recognize Israel.

 

In 90's it might looked like some problems were solved, but those times are long gone.

Time to wake up.

 

 
Quote    Reply

trenchsol       5/23/2015 4:32:41 PM
Strict ideological classification is what matters. Main communist country, Russia, is communist no more. However, they still very much support each and every communist regime on the planet. Putin loves to talk about anti-fascism, and fascist is, conveniently, everyone who is not particularly liked. It is also, a convenient umbrella term which might cover whoever needs to be covered. Also might make the fact that there is no communism in Russia less relevant for their communist allies.
 
Greeks have been either fascist or communist for major part of modern history. What make a valid case ? Greece currently critically depends on EU. Without EU there will be no money to pay pensions and salaries for public servant. I am also guessing that the whole state would collapse, there would be no public transportation, medical care, electricity and water distribution. That is why Maoist/Trotskist coalition must behave. Without it there would, probably, be much more like good old times. They reached to Russia, didn't they ?
 
One thing leads to another, and dividing lines are being moved forward, slowly. Before you know you will have expropriations, state interests above the law, blurred line between law and desired code of conduct. Then there will be martial law, detentions and murders without trials, 10% of population spying the rest for minor privileges. I have seen that working.
 
 
Quote    Reply

Spiky    trenchsol   5/24/2015 1:05:22 PM
I have seen it too. Could happen even here in the U.S. under the right conditions, one of the likely major catalyst's being the mega corrupt banking system at national and global levels (names we are very familiar with)....... "Before you know you will have expropriations, state interests above the law, blurred line between law and desired code of conduct. Then there will be martial law, detentions and murders without trials, 10% of population spying the rest for minor privileges. I have seen that working."
 
Quote    Reply

avatar3    Happening now   5/25/2015 2:58:19 AM
Its happening now. Shrinking middle class, fewer people paying taxes, more deadbeats drawing government benefits, shrinking value of the dollar, open borders, constant state of war. gridlock in House and Senate, offshoring of wealth and corporate Hq's, professionalization of the Armed Forces, educational expense, lack of jobs etc. All it takes is one guy in a uniform with a message at the right moment.
 
Quote    Reply



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics