James Jesus Angleton: Understood or Not?

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Lanton RE:James Jesus Angleton: Understood or Not? 8/6/2005 7:01:29 AM

Former CIA director Richard Helms was asked, in retrospect, what he thought of the mole investigation that took place under J.J.A's auspices. He was quoted as saying "One of the real nightmares the DCI lives with is that someone is going to walk into his office and say, 'We found a penetration.' Any director worth his stripes is bound to pay attention to allegations and to try to run them down. We had to check these things out. I felt it then, and now." It's tempting to accuse Angleton of being paranoid; he devoted the last thirteen years of his career to finding "the moles" or moles in the agency, but never got close to uncovering any such individual(s). Yet there were moles and traitors in the CIA and other intelligence agencies, notably MI6. In his book 'Mole-Hunt', on pg. 327, David Wise argues that 'The mole hunt in the CIA destroyed the careers of loyal officers, shattered lives and families, and paralyzed the agency, bringing to a halt its opreations against the Soviet Union at a time-during the height of the Cold War-when those operations were the CIA's raison d'etre.' I happen to agree with that statement, for the simple reason that Angleton put so much faith into Anatoliy Golitsyn, to the extent that Angleton believed that Yuri Nosenko wasn't the real deal (that in fact he'd been sent by the Soviets to discredit Golitsyn). Angleton lost the plot from the get-go.

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HiloBill RE:James Jesus Angleton: Understood or Not? 8/7/2005 1:27:36 AM

Lanton, You said... "I happen to agree with that statement, for the simple reason that Angleton put so much faith into Anatoliy Golitsyn, to the extent that Angleton believed that Yuri Nosenko wasn't the real deal (that in fact he'd been sent by the Soviets to discredit Golitsyn). Angleton lost the plot from the get-go." I think the jury never - to this day - is still out on that. The problem with "historical" accounts on issues like this, especially on Nosenko, is that everything is steeped in lack of direct knowledge of the events. Are you familiar with any of the accounts of Nosenko's chief handler and debriefer? Have you read Edward Jay Epstein's "Deception: The Invisible War Between the CIA and FBI"? Besides "Mole Hunt," what other books have you read on Angleton? Tom Mangold's accounts are particularly damning....or libelous. But, he commenced his research on Angleton not too long after he died. (Dead men tell no tales, no do they file suits for libel.) I have found Epstein's book to be especially insightful about Angleton as it's the ONLY book I'm aware of that is based on direct and extended interviews of of the man. All other books I've read lack this key aspect. What do you think, Lanton? BTW, are you in the intel field? If so, in what capacity? That is, of course, if you can tell me without having to kill me. Aloha, Hilo Bill

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Lanton RE:James Jesus Angleton: Understood or Not? 8/7/2005 8:47:58 AM

Well, i've also read Joseph J. Trento's 'The Secret History of the CIA' as well as several other books that talk about J.J.A's legacy in passing, like David Wise's 'Nightmover' and Ronald Kessler's 'The CIA at War'. I believe Trento interviewed Angleton a short time before he succumbed to lung cancer. I haven't read Edward Jay Epstein's 'Deception: The Invisible War Between the CIA and FBI' though, so i wouldn't be able to comment on what Epstein says of Angleton's legacy. From what i've read of Angleton, i don't think it was right for some to portray him as being a lunatic and even a toturer. He did ruin many a good intelligence officer's career and his mole-hunt resulted in the hindering of the CIA's operations against the Soviet Union. But i'll give him this; his life's mission was to protect the CIA from the enemy even though, according to him '...there was no real desire to secure the place from the Soviets.' He put his neck out to try to root out any penetrations, but alas he got it wrong in the end. What's ironic, is that he probably did comparable, if not more, damage to the CIA's operations than any Soviet spy could have possibly been in a situation to cause. I'll try to get hold of Epstein's book and get back to you. I'm not in the intel field, i'm just very interested in the histories of the American, British and Soviet intelligence services. My favorite writer's probably James Bamford. 'A Pretext for War : 9/11, Iraq, and the Abuse of America's Intelligence Agencies' was a masterpiece if you ask me. I read the book cover to cover in four days when i was on holiday and have read it again since.

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HiloBill RE:James Jesus Angleton: Understood or Not? 8/7/2005 1:38:41 PM

Lanton, You mentioned, "...when i was on holiday..." Are you from the UK or Australia? You can find copies of it (second-hand) quite inexpensively now on Amazon and elsewhere. However, due to your interests on the subject matter, you might want to spend a little extra to get a copy in "excellent" shape, if you go the second-hand route. I think you would find the whole book fascinating. It deals with the subject of deception & self-deception. It's not about Angleton, per se, however there are a number of sections that involve him (and are the result of direct interviews over long periods of time). Also, a whole chapter involves Nosenko and, therein, is revealed some aspects about his case just not found anywhere else. I think you would enjoy it greatly. (BTW, if you are from England, have you seen BBC's "The Office?" HILARIOUS! (Hilarious and profound at the same time.) I just got done watching it a few days ago; rented it from Netflix.com. Do you know if the show lasted beyond two seasons? The DVD's available were from 2001 & 2002.) Take care. HB

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Lanton RE:James Jesus Angleton: Understood or Not? 8/8/2005 5:51:10 AM

I'm from the UK and yes i've watched Office. It was a great show, but i think they only did the two seasons and a two-part christmas special.

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perfectgeneral RE:The Office 8/8/2005 6:30:09 AM

The American version lacks Ricky Gervais in the lead role and the writers are using someone elses style (difficult to do well). Gervais is currently being screened in 'Extras' (The Office' on movie sets, with guest stars).

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HiloBill RE:James Jesus Angleton: Understood or Not? 8/8/2005 1:27:28 PM

Lanton, Thanks for letting me know; I'll try to rent the Christmas special, too. Also, more on topic, I had rented "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy," and "Smiley's People," on DVD, too. Great quality programs from BBC! I plan to re-rent "Tinker..." once I finish the book (about 60 more pages). HB

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HiloBill RE:The Office 8/8/2005 1:29:12 PM

PerfectGeneral, I didn't realize there was an American version of "The Office;" I watched the BBC version. Are you also from England? HB

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HiloBill Spytime: The Undoing of James Jesus Angleton, by William F. Buckley, Jr. 8/26/2005 2:57:20 PM

"Spytime: The Undoing of James Jesus Angleton," by William F. Buckley, Jr. Great book! I don't really have enough time to give any sort of adequate review, but it was so engrossing and captivating that I found myself shoving everything aside to read the last 2/5 of it. And, this is the only time I've ever used a highlighter for a novel - that says quite a bit! Although it's "fiction," Buckley uses some known factual information throughout the book. Mostly, I think the book gives a much fairer and truer accounting for who the man really was as a person. From most accountings I've read, there appears to be a VERY distorted view of him. And, I base this not just on Edward Jay Epstein's book, "Deception: The Invisible War Between the KGB and CIA," wherein Epstein related his direct - and very extensive - interviews with the man himself, but, on what I'll post next (Post #10). HB

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HiloBill Direct Words on JJA from Someone Who Actually KNEW Him. 8/26/2005 3:10:53 PM

Post #10: I have corresponded with someone who actually KNEW JJA as a professional associate and very close friend. These are his words: "As for my 'thoughts and positions' on Golitsyn and Angleton, they have been so variously and incorrectly and inadequately reported that you should not 'retain' any part of what you have read.... "My relations with Angleton were close, deeply friendly, and of long standing, starting from my introduction into his inner circle of friends early in my career and ending only with his death. (We met and corresponded often, long after my retirement which predated his...)...The published descriptions of him as a paranoid are barely recognizable to those of us who truly knew and worked with him - - rarely has a figure been so distorted by detractors. It is even written that he turned away would-be collaborators from the East, and his views (allegedly influencing mine) 'paralyzed' our Soviet operations. Pure fiction. He was never in a position to stop or prevent any recruitment efforts or our acceptance of defectors, even if he were inclined to do so, which he wasn't...Beware of this fiction that is posing as history." "Beware of...fiction...posing as history." I think this is a MOST important thing we must always keep in our minds and temper our opinions with. I don't know JJA. And, I think you'll find that most every author who has ever written about Angleton never knew him either (except for Epstein, from what I can determine). Most accountings about the man found in books is hearsay from third-persons. Moreover, those who might have had SOME contact with him did not - by the nature of his profession - know the reasons behind why he thought the way he did or why his opinions on issues were one way or the other. There was a concerted effort to discredit JJA following his dismissal by DCI William Colby; he was the sacrifical lamb for the Church & Pike Commissions - the fall guy. To support the action of firing Angleton (the chief and founder of CIA's counterintelligence structure), many institutionalized myths became "reality." It was important to such justification to advance the false notions of Angleton going off the deep end into a world of paranoia. Based on ALL the material ever written about JJA, a student of Intel history, who thoroughly studied it all, will come away CONVINCED that JJA was a bad guy, that he was a paranoid, that he was wrong. However, such a student of "history," might likely - and more accurately - be an expert on fiction rather than history - rather than truth. WW

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HiloBill TheFinalPhase.com Updated 9/13/2005 4:07:47 PM

TheFinalPhase.com has been updated: link HB

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HiloBill A Spot-On Quote Re: James Angleton 11/22/2005 12:40:08 PM

From The Literary Spy: The Ultimate Source for Quotations on Espionage & Intelligence, compiled and annotated by Charles E. Lathrop, New Haven and London, Yale University Press, 2004 ? page number shown below): ?The story of James Angleton as chief of Counter-Intelligence cannot be told now; at least not well, and perhaps never . . . . To tell the story the historian would need to have unfettered access to the archives of the British, French, Italian, Israeli, and Russian intelligence services, as well as the American and, quite probably, others. No such historian will ever exist. The scholar lacks access, assets, penetrations, sources, contacts ? the entire array of resources by which a professional intelligence officer may, after much time, great expenditure of money, and with the support of his government, obtain an intelligence story. Angleton both tests and proves Sherman Kent?s dictum: while much can be learned that is presumed to be irretrievable, one cannot learn enough to tell in the end precisely how interesting, how significant, how true what one does know may be.? ?Robin W. Winks on the intelligence historian?s dilemma in Cloak and Gown: Scholars in the Secret War, 1939 ? 1961 (1978). Angleton was CIA?s CI chief from 1954 to 1974. Of intelligence history more generally, Winks says, ?If the truth were known hundreds of books now on the shelves would be reclassified from history to fiction. But the truth is not known.?? (Page 280)

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stratego RE:James Jesus Angleton: Understood or Not? 12/2/2005 12:25:46 AM

I am a complete believer in Anatoliy Golitsyn. I have both his books and find them totally convincing. I also find his books mesh perfectly with Ion Pacepa's book and the three books I have read by Viktor Suvorov. Hence, of course I believe in Angleton. However, I confess to a lack of specific knowlege on Angleton. The question is quite important. I believe the Russian worldwide intelligence and agent of influence network continues to function. The current leadership of Russia tends to support Golitsyn's view of events there. From an article in the Wall Street Journal, page 1, Wednesday, February 23, 2005: "Mr. Putin him self served more than 15 years in the KGB and later headed its successor, the FSB. Since taking over the Kremlin in 2000, he has presided over an unprecedented influx of ex-KGB men into the upper echelons of power---men whose formative years were spent learning how to undermine the West's interests. Prominent among the ex-KGB officials who now pace the Kremlin's corridors are Defense minister Sergei Ivanov, Interior Minister Rahid Nurgaliev, and FSB chief Nikolai Patrushev, as well as the heads of Russia's arms-export, defense-procurement, and drug-enforcement agencies. A close Putin aide and former KGB man, Victor Ivano, serves on the board of flagship airline OAO Aeroflot. A favorite parlor game in Russia is to divine which other senior officials and businessmen have suspicious gaps in their resume that suggest a past with the intelligence services."

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stratego RE:Direct Words on JJA from Someone Who Actually KNEW Him. 12/2/2005 12:35:32 AM

If you read Golitsyn, you will understand what is happening here. It is a concerted effort by Soviet-Russian influenced "agents of influence" to rewrite history. It goes on all the time with the Hard Left and, increasingly, the Democratic Party. American Academia is rife with such lies, as documented and demonstrated by David Horowitz. The distortions of the Mainstream Media are well known. If you read Dangerous Diplomacy by Joel Mowbray, it is obvious that the US State Department is virtually controlled by people opposed to the interests of the United States, though Mowbray denies this conclusion that his book proves and protests that State Department employees are loyal Americans.

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stratego RE:James Jesus Angleton: Understood or Not? 12/2/2005 12:40:40 AM

"Tinker Tailor..." is about the best thing I ever saw on TV. remember these lines? "I'm not the same man I was before Morrocco [or whatever country it was where he lost a whole string of spies he was running who were betrayed]." star of the series says: "No one would be...[catches himself and corrects himself]...I wouldn't trust you if you were."

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