Why It's Easy To Hate Israel

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Subject: Why It's Easy To Hate Israel
SYSOP 5/29/2012 5:34:08 AM

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HeavyD 5/30/2012 12:58:48 AM

Wow, where to start. OK, the obvious: "Iran...constantly calling for other countries to be destroyed" Really? Seems like it's Israel that is constantly threatening to attack Iran, and actually is with the 'constant' murders of their civilian scientists, and 'constant' cyber attacks.

Re: Palestinians...the reason why Israel is easy to hate here are many and obvious: the grossly disproportionate civilian casualties, a wall which Israel's own Supreme Court has deemed illegal in some areas, and of course the constant 'Settlement' encroachments.

But the real story is that Israel is a one-way friend, offering nothing in return for the billions in support it gets from countries around the world. Nothing. Yes they have a robust medical and technical economy, but that's all private sector.

It has been many, many years since Israel has been able to play the 'victim' card, and apparently the world is catching on...

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frylock 5/30/2012 3:38:37 AM

It has been many, many years since Israel has been able to play the 'victim' card, and apparently the world is catching on...

Wow, that's quite a load you have shoveled out there.

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trenchsol 5/30/2012 6:11:08 AM

Pakistan has tried, with less success, to portray itself as the victim of American, Israeli, and Indian aggression.

Yeah, sure, Pakistan is bombed by couple $billion aid every year by America. If wish I was a victim of American aggression in similar way.

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HeavyD Frylock...break it down for me 5/30/2012 6:06:56 PM

@ Frylock...

I must admit that most of my information comes from the media, as does most of the rest of the world. That's the basis for my opinions. I really would appreciate it if someone could provide a lucid, dogma-free counter-points to the following:

1. The grossly-disproportionate civilian casualties in both Gaza and Lebanon over the past two incursions are troublesome to many. Self-defense flips to Self-Offense when it is plainly 'punative' toward civilians.

2. The continued West Bank annexation is in violation of past agreements, unless I am mis-informed. And no, I really don't care who's goatskin scrawlings are older, or who's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandparents owned what. By that last argument all of European decent should un-ass all of North and South America, eh?

3. Now that the US has bases directly in the persian gulf (where the oil is...the only reason why we care at all about the Middle East as opposed to sub-saharan africa, for example), Israel offers precious little from a strategic partnership as far as I can see.

So...load of crap or well-reasoned arguments that you are free to refute.

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Ezekiel 5/31/2012 11:33:18 AM

3. You need to do some homework on this subject, but for one, I am against Israel taking aid from america, not because its bad for US but b/c it is bad for Israel. majority of US aid is spent on american equipment and the rest has strings attached (as it should). Remember the cancelled lavi fighter jet, or do you remember the squashed awac deal to china. where did US homeland security turn to after 9/11 to get much of their training and terror engagement strategies after 9/11. The list goes on, but i think its safe to say that Israel is not a charity case but a strategic asset, with one of the most battle hardened and effective militaries in the world, refusing to acknowledge this is pure ignorance

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Ezekiel reality check 5/31/2012 11:35:30 AM

sorry about the above comments - for some reason I wouldn't load all my remarks...

First notice that you aren't addressing the main issue here...which is not to say that israel is perfect it isn't. But that it should come in 4th on this list....is absurd!

ignoring the fact that its the sole functioning democracy in the region, disregard the fact that Assad in Syria, right next door to Israel has killed more of his own people in a single year then the palestinians entire death toll in this 100 year conflict between the Jews and Arabs on this piece of land. Disregarding, darfur, congo, china (remember tibet), zimbabwe, or any of the despots in the ME, makes the point that SP is making in this article....israel is singled out for castigation.

To address your central points let go one by one.

1. So you are arguing the disproportionate line. Ok. So lets take Gaza or I like to call it Hamastan. After Israel left and ethnically cleansed gaza of all the Jews, israeli population centers in the south have since endured 8000+ rockets. Now on top of that the terrorists fire from civilian positions onto civilians....a double crime! What would you do if your town you lived in was being rocketed unceasingly by jihadi terrorists! we saw how britain in WWII retaliated to the Nazi blitz....remember mainz, dresden.... disproportionate argument becomes easier to make when your in the cheap seats. beyond that, the notion of war is that you are supposed to disproportionate, its the way wars are won. The fact that in the case of gaza, they elected by 70+% the jihadi terror militia (hamas) into power does argue a certain amount of mass culpability....despite all that, in Cast lead, even judge goldstone now admits that Israel conducted itself properly.

2. Now you are getting into legal questions of west bank definition, remember Israel won it from the heshimites/egyptians not any palestinian state, according to int. law it is "disputed" land, not "occupied". Point being Jews should be able to live anywhere they want, especially in its historic land, having a palestinian state will not pivot on whether Jews inhabit some of its soil, just like Israel has 1.2 million arabs, why not the same for a future palestinian state? I'm to understand that you desire a future palestinian state which must be Judenrein? hmmmmmm The fact is, Jewish neighborhoods are not the reason for this conflict, it is just a pretext to carry on this conflict until there are no more jewish neighborhoods or town anywhere, whether its tel aviv or in the west bank town of Eli .

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myhandlewontfi my opinion 5/31/2012 12:46:14 PM

my opinion is that we cant do anything about arabian religous extremism, so we try to make israel stop instead, because some people cant bear to see it on tv.

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HeavyD Thanks for proving my points 5/31/2012 9:10:32 PM

Ezekiel,

When you have to resort to changing the topics you are admitting that you have no position which simply strengthens mine.

1. Israel's strategic value to the US: Yes, Israel has an excellent military. So what. How has this ever been an asset to the US? In Desert Storm I or II? Afghanistan? Viet Nam? When?

You don't get it: there is no oil in Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan or Egypt, and Israel has no capabilities outside of it's immediate neighborhood. Nope, no asset, no net benefit, no increased capabilities we don't already have.

2. Yes 8000 crude rockets have been launched. What is the total casualties they have caused? What is the total civilian casualties killed in response? Your argument is that if a family has a kid who is dealing drugs and doing drive-bys that it's acceptable for the police to lob a grenade into his house and kill his mother and baby sister.

Sure you bring up historical precedents, but seriously you don't want to go there. WWII was a WORLD WAR against a well-equipped foe. The Palestinians are attacking (or defending from their perspective) with the only means available. They don't have tanks, heavy guns or an air force, now do they? Not a valid comparison, and you sound rather vapid trying to explain why it's the Palestinian's fault why a sniper had to be engaged with a 120mm tank round fired into a residential neighborhood, with highly predictable civilian casualties.

3. Legal questions about territory? Here's one for you: "Occupied Territory", as in the Golan Heights. Not Israel is it? Nope, occupied.

Dude I'm just answering why it is easy to hate Israel. Israel has a right to exist and a right to do whatever it wants. And it will reap the natural consequences. The point is that you are losing the PR war and therefore the Palis are winning. And performing helicopter assaults onto ships from an important trading partner and ally in international waters that ends up with Turks being shot in the face at close range, when there was no way that those ships contained weapons and even if they did there was no way they would be allowed to dock and unload just proves the point even farther: Israel (and it's supporters) are so self-absorbed that you can't see how the rest fo the world views it/you.

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JonathanInTelAviv HeavyD 6/1/2012 11:34:14 AM

"the grossly disproportionate civilian casualties"

Actually, civilian casualties in Gaza were grossly, disproportionately low, about 30 percent, whereas the percent of civilians vs. terrorists is about 95%. Or you can look at it the other way. Terrorists make up about 5% of the Gazan population, wherease the percent of terrorist casualties were about 70%, or FOURTEEN TIMES better than random.

And no, the terrorists don't wear signs saying "I'm a terrorist".

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HeavyD Stop Digging 6/2/2012 12:19:52 AM

Jonathan...you are committing the same mistakes that Israel's hawkish government is: you are trying to prove why your actions are justified but you are losing horribly.

You are clueless even about being clueless as to how repulsive your argument is to people who are not emotionally involved in the situation. You are basically trying to get a pat on the back because you didn't kill even more civilians, while the rest of the world is horrified at the hundreds that you did kill.

And if this argument is thrown out (as it invariably is), the next card that is usually played is "See, but Syria is worse...", or "Yeah, but Hamas is more brutal toward their own civilians".

And again the rest of the world just shakes it's head and says "They still don't get it...or worse they do and they don't give a damn."

This is how Hamas is winning while losing in the court of world public opinion. FOr a nation and a people that has produced a disproportionate number of Nobel Prize winners it seems rather incredulous that you don't understand this by now. In fact it is so incredulous that the only logical answer left is that Bibi and Likud know that a real peace is the worst thing that could happen to them: they would be out of power at the next election. So they keep Israel isolated so people (like you) will have to rally to the flag. How is this any different to what Slobodan Milosevic did in Serbia/Chechnya? Or how the Ils stay in power in North Korea?

I know it's an unsavory choice...either all y'all are just plain stoopid (NOT!) or you are allowing yourselves to be manipulated for political purposes. Of course it's the latter. But then again who am I, as an American, to throw stones. We willingly allowed ourselves as a nation to spend a T-T-T-Trillion Dollars, 4,000 lives and 100k's of casualties and lives ruined on a completely bogus war in Iraq, vastly strengthening Iran in the process. Oh yes, we too were manipulated to the highest level. Just ask Colin Powell.

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