The Abrams is good, but oh so thirsty. Even to take tiny Q8 in GW1 the yanks had to set up forward fuel dumps!

"Plz, go and search a post where we claim that the French stuff is the best and we dont say anything to proov it " Why don't you take a look at some of jaques posts in the "top ten armed forces" thread? I think you might find what you're looking for.

Whenever I say good things about French systeme I stated my rason ans I also take into cosideration other coutries with similiar systeme. I give due credit to other whereares all the english and asian poster said theu're better than French without or with some poorly rasons

RE:correction 12/18/2003 4:33:06 PM The Abrams is good, but oh so thirsty. Even to take tiny Q8 in GW1 the yanks had to set up forward fuel dumps Listen, all these nitpicking are going nowhere. One of the poster had point out to me. If you have fuel for your helicopter then you have fuel for your tank. This is my suggestion to all M1 operators out there. Change your powerpack and adopted eletronic components form the Leclerc and it will be better. Challenger tank. Change the gun to smooth bore and upgrade electronic components of the Leclerc. Leclerc tank. Get thicker and heavier armor which sould be easy and it would make everyone happy. The Leopard2. Get automatic transmission and upgrade the communication suite and it will be a very good tank. The Merkava4. Get a more powerful engine and better communication suite. Russian/Chinese tank operators. Give their tank chobham armor. If not then at least chobham type bolt on armor. and redesign their turret to incoporate the busseau for amunition safety reason. Those are things they all can do to better their tanks and make their tankers and critics less unhappy.

So we have a french point of view,a very strong brit party and one or two german posters like me,in here.Alst we see that France,Germany,UK,US and Israel have all very good MBTs one little better there others better ther but its alwasy up to the point how you look at it,(and where you come from) but thats ok with me and i dont think its realy nationalism ist just shoes us all of us are proud of everybodys countrys military.BUT remember its us the WESTERN WORLD we are the target right now because some terrorist mean we are the worlds enemy number one and we have to stick together to defend us and the free world,for that we need the Leopard,M1...,Challenger,Leqlerc,Merkava......... and with the help of god we will win. Merry X-Mas to all of you see ya in here in 2004 Winter Greetings out of Stuttgart.

"Whenever I say good things about French systeme I stated my rason " Jaques no you don't stop trying to say you do because we all know it isn't true just ask anyone. I mean come on I have actually posted your exact words to show that you have been hypocritical, in accurate, and just a plain old liar! Do you want me to post the proof because I will.

This is my suggestion to all M1 operators out there. Change your powerpack and adopted eletronic components form the Leclerc and it will be better. The canadian sights in the m1a2's are supposed to be the worlds best, superior to those in the Leclerc. The power plant is horses for courses, whilst it does use a lot of fuel it make the M1's damn quick to accelerate, something that you keep telling us is one of the Leclercs advantages. so if you can supply the fuel(and the logistic chain of the us can ) then it makes a vaild choice. Challenger tank. Change the gun to smooth bore and upgrade electronic components of the Leclerc. the rifled gun is the best in the world at the moment(it is likely to lose this crown if the UK govenment doesnt invest in developing the next generation of ammo) so why change it? the electronic suit that equips the E's and is being retro fitted to earlier 2's has the same bettle field command and control system as the leclerc, but coupled with the superior canadian sights, maybe the leclerc should change. Leclerc tank. Get thicker and heavier armor which sould be easy and it would make everyone happy. oh this is so easy? can your basic components take more weight? there have been rummours of suspension failures already! plus this would slow it down, it already only has a marginal advatage accross country, adding wieght will reduce this still you should just admit that whilst the leclerc is a mighty fine tank and is certainly superior in certain aspects. modern tanks are almost equal, the small advantage one has over another would certainly be negated by combat enviroments (ie crew training/fatigue, terrain, force numbers and dispotsions, opposing force, supply situation etc etc etc

Oldbutnotwise has said a very smart (albiet obvious thing)... all modern western tanks are generally equal in capabilities. Some are better in other areas than others, but on the whole western modern armour is extremely capable. Thus, as old said, it comes down to other factors in the end, experience, tactics, training, situation, opponents, environment, etc. Therefore, this 'Leclerc is better than this and that,' and 'M1 is too inefficient,' etc. is really not worth crapping on about. How about another discussion where there is no top ten list, but a pros and cons of various tanks, backed up by fact and not influenced by prejudice. Anyway, my 2 cents on the Subject: 1. Leo2A6 - Undoubtebly the latest in MBTs, and has influenced many an upgrade, and is a constantly evolving tank. 2. M1A2 - until the SEP come into larger service, the Abrams is No. 2, battle proven, hard as nails and a generally a kick-arse machine, if a little expensive. Personally, I don't mind the turbine. Its advantages and flaws were understood from the start, and the various trade offs were woth it in my mind. 3. Challenger2 - Superb armour (the best) and great gun, if underpowered for my liking (needs at least a 1500), a few niggling problems, but nothing's perfect, but the Chally comes close. 4. Merkava 4: A really well thought out a capable machine derived and designed from experience, it can mix with just about anything. However, it is an Israeli design, designed specifically for Israel, and in that role it very hard to supercede. As for exportability, that is questionable. 5. Leclerc. I guess the L gets into 5. The French can produce some top-quality stuff, and this Tank is proof of this. However, it has yet to be proven in almost all respects, and until it is, its stake at 5 is precarious, with strong competiton from Russia and SK and Japan. As for the rest, I'll have to do more research before I speak on the other tanks. P.S: In 'New Tanks- What should Australia get?' You may be aware that most (including the Royal Australian Armoured Corps) favour the Leo2A6. I must admit, that influenced my top 5...

There are, perhaps, tanks out there that have thicker skins, longer reachs, or are straiter shooters... however I don't think any of them have the C3I capabilities of the M1A2. The A2 is the digital tank- no more maps, you have computer screens. Command and Control is taken to a whole new level of wow. Battlefield internets, digital radios, C3I screens, independent commanders sight, a fully built-in camera for the drivers (now that is good news, let me tell you!) mixed together with the basic M-1 platform with its excellent GERMAN gun, superb BRITISH armor and you have what is in my opinion the modern 'HMS Dreadnought' for the tanker world. Ask any German student of war- Germany didn't beat the allies in 1940 because the PZKW III had the thicker armor, more accurate and harder hitting gun, or was the fastest mover. It won because the Germany Army took a quantium leap in combined arms tactics and married it up with excellent command and control and aggressive and capable commanders. C3I boys and girls. That is what makes the battle winner :D

"however I don't think any of them have the C3I capabilities of the M1A2." Well doesn't the LeClerc have all the modern gadgets? If that is your criteria then the LeClerc is the tank of choice. Oh yes and "T 90 is best" Shadow ofcourse! however did we miss it, I mean you have posted such a clear argument yet so simple, I applaude you.