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Subject: best MBT for urban warfare?
more_tanks    9/6/2008 8:16:43 AM
Well, military experts predict that 70% of combat in the future will take place in urban enviroment.

What would be the best MBT for such warfare?

Abrams M1A2 TUSK, Leopard 2 PSO, LeClerc AZUR, Merkava mk4 BAZ, or...?
 
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flamingknives       9/6/2008 9:52:35 AM
The Challenger 2 is worthy of note, with RWS, good armour to the flank and rear and a rifled gun capable of firing HESH. The length of the gun may be an issue (a 55 calibre length piece compared to the Abrams' 44 calibre length weapon) in tight spaces.
The suspension of the CR2 is also an advantage compared to Abrams and Leopard, as an explosion underneath a roadwheel will not be transmitted as effectively into the hull.
 
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FJV    Dunno, maybe a bulldozer?   9/6/2008 11:00:42 AM
Don't know. I still have not figured out for myself whether the succesfull use of M1 tanks in Iraqi cities can be applied to the use of tanks in the urban environments of other wars.
 
There's a few recent examples of tank use in cities which contradict:
- The Russian use of armor in Grozny.
- The Israeli use of armored bulldozers in Jenin.
- The American use of armor in Iraqi cities.
 
So for me there's still a lot of the "what if's" to consider: 
- What if the enemy is armed with more effective anti tank weapons than the RPG7?
- What happens in a city with narrower streets?
- What happens when different tactics are used?
Etc, etc, etc.
 
It might even be that each different situation forces you to have to reinvent effective armor tactics .
 
 
 
 
 
 
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more_tanks       9/7/2008 8:37:01 AM
I think that Merkava 4 performed pretty well in 2006. Lebanon war against Hezbollah.
18 of them were hit by ATGM and 6 penetrated, which is 33%.
Most of Hezbollah ATGM were old RPG-7, Malyutka, Fagot and Konkurs, which are 30 year old technology, but they also had modern Russian ATGM like RPG-29 (which penetrated Challenger 2 hull  in Iraq) that has RHA 750 mm after ERA penetration, and even more powefull with penetration RHA 850 mm after ERA, and Kornet 9M133 with RHA penetration of huge 1200 mm after ERA.
There is no information where were tanks hit when penetrated (front, side, rear or top from inside of buildings or roof?), but Hezbollah tactics was to hit a tank from rear or side, so that shows that Merkava 4 is probably best protected tank today, with quality armour not only on front, but also well protected on sides, top and rear.
 
Now there is even more improved Merkava 4 BAZ, with better side and top armour (called M-TAPS, and it's more advanced than Chobham armour), and Trophy active defence (which, by my opinion can be easly disabled with proper tactics like damaging Trophy's radars with sniper, machinegun or infantry fire - you just can't put radar behind armour - it won't work then. For instance, one of the Croat's tactics in Croatian war was to damage tank's optics with heavy snipers to "make" them blind and than easy target.), and other modifications.
 
U.S. and British tanks probably, except that incident with Challenger 2 penetrated with RPG-29, haven't been attacked with modern ATGM in Iraq, especially with Kornet 9M133 missiles, so we don't know jet how would they perform, but we can see that modifications are needed when it comes to urban warfare. Challenger 2 have ERA on glacis and sides, Abrams M1A2 TUSK is optimized for urban conflict, and there are also Leopard 2 PSO and LeClerc AZUR, even the new Japanese MBT Type 10 is optimized for demanding urban warfare.
 
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