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Subject: Spike Nails Javelin
SYSOP    11/12/2014 5:23:18 AM
 
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Shirrush       11/13/2014 2:13:21 AM
Rafael's Spike has at least one crucial advantage over Javelin, and it is that it is a fact a family of weapons, not a single missile. AFAIK, at least three different missiles can be loaded on the portable infantry launcher, one of them being a longer-range, optical fiber-guided one with retargeting and NLOS capabilities, and the other one is a small assassination weapon with a very low launch signature.
 
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trenchsol       11/13/2014 4:05:33 PM
This is not exactly related, but it might be interesting. A video of Russian insurgent in East Ukraine firing PTRD anti-tank rifle from WWII period.
 
 
 
 
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keffler25       11/13/2014 4:20:13 PM
That weapon 'might' be effective against the rear engine armor on the T-72 and T-90 tanks, TS. As ridiculous as it sounds, the Americans were actually killing T-72s with 12.7 mm AP shots into their tank diesels during the Gulf Wars. Some of the shots went into tank turrets upper rear arcs (20 mm armor) with the bullets bouncing around inside doing all kinds of nasty things to the fragile crews in the fighting compartments. Just depends on where you aim. The armor in some places on Russian tanks is nonexistent or just no good (brittle). 
 
The PTRD is even more powerful with its 14.5 mm incendiary.  Killed a lot of Panzer 38t's in WW II. Punches through 19-25 mm of SKODA steel armor easy.

This is not exactly related, but it might be interesting. A video of Russian insurgent in East Ukraine firing PTRD anti-tank rifle from WWII period.

 

 


 

 
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avatar3    Soviet Tin Cans   11/13/2014 8:31:45 PM
Soviet armored equipment built  on the tracked bodies of the PT-76 Amphibious Tank and the on the modified T54 body was often so thin at the top and rear that they could be penetrated by 12.5/50 cal and 40MM rounds. The problem was compounded by the absence of armored bulkheads and spall blankets between the engine, personnel, fuel and ammo storage areas. This allowed an outside shot to penetrate the vehicle from one end to the other. Based on WWII experience with the ISU series of armored bodies (which had the same problems) you would have thought they figured this out, but they didn't.  The Soviet equipment of my time did appear to be formidable until shot though the ass.  The BMP1 had fuel storage in the rear doors, the ZSU 23 could be lit up by firing 50 cal tracer through the rear engine covers, the BTR wheeled vehicles weak door hinges. Additionally, when they recovered armored vehicles exterior holes in the hull were often patched with "monkey metal" (pot metal), the vehicle was then repainted and put back into service.
 
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Nate Dog    Holy ####   11/13/2014 9:31:13 PM
I never heard any of this before...
Seriously that under armoured? Thats mental. I know ant-tank rifles carried some serious punch but always assumed they became extinct with the end of WW2 and the proliferation of serious tanks. 
My old man served in the IDF armoured core, his was one of the units that was equipped with captured, up gunned, re-engined T-55's. Good thing they never showed their ass to the enemy. Thats insane. 
I feel even more sorry for operators of soviet equipment now. I just assumed the unliveable conditions made operating them torturous, always assumed a good level of competence from Soviet tank manufacturers, Mettalurgy was one of the few fields of science in which the soviets did do well.   
I guess you do get what you pay for.  
 
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Nate Dog    Shirrush, Spike family   11/13/2014 9:34:46 PM
While what you're saying is true as regards the Spike missile, there are 4 versions from memory, from an 800 meter range, 2.5Km, 8km up to the big daddy 25km ranged missile, I don't think they can all be fired from the one platform, maybe the 800meter and 2.5 km one (maybe, missile sizes are very different) the other 2, MR and ER definitely can't be launched from the same platform.
Not saying its not a good piece of kit, and with all due respect to the Javelin, buying from the US constrains you to following US foreign policy, else re-supply gets somewhat iffy. Even for Israel. 
 
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avatar3    Nate Dog   11/14/2014 3:12:21 AM
 As long as the supporting infantry could protect the the armored vehicle it was safe. But even the best tank can be taken out by determined infantry with the right training and equipment.
 
 
 
The Soviets have good metal skills and they are excellent designers. The problem is the abality to manufacture the product in factories that are less then adequate with workers who have no incentive. During WWII the T37 was made in huge numbers, it was a great tank, well designed and able to be made on 20th century factory floors.  But the T37 had no electrical system which made production simple to the extreme. (Tanks communicated with flags and other visual signals, radio systems for company commanders vehicles were retrofitted)  Tanks were started by a compressed air storage system that cycled the engine causing cylinder compression and with fuel added, ignition. The T54/55 series was and upgrade of the T37. But technology took its toll, electrical systems had to be added, they had  trouble developing a better tank engine,  high tech guns, NBC equipment, etc.  They reached a point where money from Peter had to be used to pay Paul. At about the T72 level (my estimate) they were bankrupted trying to keep up with the West.
 
 
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Shirrush       11/14/2014 4:00:03 AM
AFAIK, Spike MR and Spike LR can be launched from the same CLU. Mini-Spike has its own compact launch device, but can be fitted to the MR/LR thing through an adaptor. The large missiles, Spike ER and the artillery missile, 25km-range Spike NLOS, each have their own device. Modified M60 tanks were seen recently, equipped with a modified turret with NLOS canisters and a foldable blade antenna. I do not know whether Spike SR has been procured anywhere, but it doesn't appear to require any launch device. So, there are 6 weapons in that family so far.
 
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trenchsol       11/14/2014 5:33:39 AM
I was not trying to underestimate PTRD capabilities. It is a rare sight worth seeing. At least for me. Those old anti-tank rifles look amazing, although they lost battle against the armor. I suppose that there are plenty of lighter armored vehicles which should still fear them.
 
That piece must be decades old. Where did they find it ? In the museum ? Or, maybe, someones grandfather kept it as a trophy ?
 
 
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ker    Planned Obsolescence   11/14/2014 9:13:35 PM
WW2 Russians built tanks to exacting standards, intentionaly low standards. They knew their tanks would survive for six months. Once in combat they lived for 14 hours. Any time or metal used to make any part of the tank last longer than six mounths was wasted. Only by avoiding that waste could they keep tanks flowing toward the front. Building "better" tanks would have been a war losing mistake. Russian tank planning and building were done in responce to the strategic realitys. +++++++++ Germans custom made tanks as if they were sending them to a car show to win a blue ribon. It was a fine art rather than prodution runs. Army didn't want hard tooling because they wanted flexebility to change desighns at will. Say six times as many man hour as the russians needed per tank and a smaller labor pool because the used highly skilled craftsmen. +++++++++ In modern context the declining tolerance for crew deaths and the increasing number of ways to attack tanks means that tanks need more types of more expensive protection. Soon your tanks desighn becomes so expensive you can only buy one of them. If the M1 isn't the last maned US tank it is second to the last.
 
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