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Subject: Israeli Secret Weapon Revealed
SYSOP    8/3/2015 5:13:37 AM
 
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Bill Befort       8/3/2015 11:39:27 AM
But the tank-destroyer concept was discredited in WWII!  I read it on the web!
 
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Bob Cortez       8/3/2015 1:32:37 PM
Different weapon different time O tempora o mores.
 
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trenchsol       8/3/2015 1:56:18 PM
Why is 105mm gun not removed ? Is it simply cheaper that way or it is some sort of deception ?
 
 
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Nate Dog    deception   8/3/2015 7:10:13 PM
And a mighty clever one.
Got me. Stupid foot slogger so what the hell did i know, but i used to see these things rolling around up north, and every time i'd think, weird, thought the last of the Magach's had been retired from active service units, must be reserves on training at the same time as us.
Worse, I was in A.T. (TOW missiles), we trained with the boys that were in that unit, various mission related training we'd do together, and i still never knew they had these. Operational secrecy actually worked. Unheard of.  
 
 
 
 
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vahitkanig       8/4/2015 4:48:39 AM
Tank versus  tank is  not  practical  on the  battle field as Tank Battle  very sensitive asimetric solution anti  tank missiles  more  practial  on the  infantry.
 
 
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joe6pack       8/4/2015 11:37:12 AM
"Why is 105mm gun not removed ? Is it simply cheaper that way or it is some sort of deception ?"
 
 I'd assume both?  And who knows.. maybe you might need the gun again.. if tank losses are high.
 
I'm a little surprised at the operation security on this.. although, I suppose.. why give the bad guys anything you don't need to?  Good job IDF on that front.
 
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Nate Dog    Don't think so   8/5/2015 3:51:07 AM
think of the logistics involved.
I'd bet these are decommissioned guns, no longer fit for service. Also, the mechanism to fire the weapon, target the weapon, stabilise the weapon, load the weapon, service the weapon, etc etc etc has all been removed to free space for the ancillaries for the missile launch and storage system.
To whit, the only way these things ever fire a shell again is if you pull the entire turret and implant an entire working one. 
Its for subterfuge.
I seriously can't imagine it ever being made into a tank again.
 
 
 
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joe6pack       8/5/2015 10:43:18 AM
>think of the logistics involved
 
Admittedly, not a particularly well thought out comment on my part.  I think what popped into my mind was the M68 gun on the M60 was the same as the earlier model Merkava.. (not sure how much.. if any other commonality in parts) - but didn't "think" (a common problem of mine) that it would be such a big deal.
 
According to, ok.. a Wiki article - it was where I found a picture of the Pereh... the cannon is actually a "fake".. not sure if this equivalent to a non-working cannon.. OR if they actually went to the trouble to attach a fake after removing the actual gun.. which.. thinking about it.. Maybe they did in order to free up space in the turret?
 
 
 
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trenchsol       8/5/2015 6:24:43 PM
On topic of tank destroyer, during WWII and after there were heavy tanks, light tanks, medium tanks. Some tanks were there to supporting infantry, the others served as scouts and some were tank destroyers, etc. At some point Main battle Tank was introduced and it was supposed to overtake all those roles.
 
Than why tank destroyer today ? I don't know, but my impression is that gun is slowly losing battle against the armor. Destroying the tank always required some skill beyond simply firing a gun. Perhaps it is getting worse.
 
 
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Nate Dog    Typecasting i think   8/6/2015 2:04:03 AM
Calling these tank destroyers or AT support vehicles is using a 70 year old type cast/doctrine.
 
What i think you'll find is that these are in fact indirect precision artillery. Would be the best description for them.
 
Call it air support without needing a chopper in the air to call down hellfire's. Simply designate a target with laser, radio in and call for, say 3 shots, and your rangers in the field, guide the missiles onto the target, be it Tank, bunker, cluster of infantry, C&C centre or whatever target of opportunity happens to pop up. Flight time is likely a minute or so for the max range, still, if you can get a round out within 30 seconds of radio in, thats a 90 second time on target fire support. Conversely, calling in CAS would take a minimum X minutes to get an AC in range, then liaise with AF liaison officer on the ground, and get support on target.

So, modern artillery, in a well protected vehicle, that doesnt have to stay 20kms behind the action, but can be stationed quite close and have a round on target in very short amount of time.
Likely declassified, because as expensive as the current precision guided 155mm artillery rounds are, they're getting cheaper, and, even at $100k per round, would almost certainly be cheaper than this weapons system. They're likely all replaced by now by hyper accurate proper artillery support.
 Even if you do need it for a tank, a 155mm landing within 10 meters of a tank, would almost certainly knock that tank out of action.
 
 
 
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