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Subject: Triangulation / Direction Finding
Yimmy    11/22/2006 1:18:17 PM
Firstly, I am just infantry and have never been on any signals courses or otherwise been privy to possibly classified informtion, so don't see anything wrong with discussing this here.

Everyone has heard of being "DF'd" by the enemy and having lots of nasties thrown at them as a result, while DF of course stands for Direction Finding.

Now, I was arguing with a signaller friend of mine about it. Obviously him being a signaller I am at a disadvantage, but I am certain I am right.

To triangulate an enemy radio broadcast, you need two landrovers (or other radio reciever set-ups) don't you? He was arguing that you need three recievers to locate the enemy.

I am sure it is two, as if both recievers know each-others location, and both detect the enemy bradcast and find its direction, they form a triangle don't they? This being with two point of the triangle the two recivers, and one corner the enemy broadcast.

Knowing two angles (through knowing their locations and the direcion of the enemy), and knowing one side (being the distance between the two recievers), allows them to find the other two sides (and therefore distance to the enemy). Knowing where they are, and the direction and distance to the enemy, they can plot the enemies location.

Right?
 
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Yimmy       11/22/2006 6:28:12 PM
Never mind I got my answer.
 
 
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Carl S       11/22/2006 7:35:36 PM
Well???  What the h..ll was it??
 
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Yimmy       11/22/2006 8:37:10 PM
My signals friend asked a signals friend who consulted his manual.... so I don't really think I can say how it's done in the Brit army.
 
My thinking two recievers were used was based on trigonometry and searching google, but that was concerning a frequency band rather than a release transmission point.
 
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Carl S       11/24/2006 8:57:57 AM
In the artillery we had to learn how to analyze shell craters to find the direction the projectile had been fired from.  Several shell craters a few hundred meters apart could give you a good triangulation fix on a cannons location.  However it was not absolutly necessary to triangulate.  After plotting the first azimuth obtained on the map we could inspect along the line and reduce the likely locations for the cannon down to a few possibilities.  Sometimes suuch a single azimuth map spot was enough to justify a counter battery mission.
 
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Mike From Brielle       11/30/2006 5:43:33 PM
If you had Marconni antennas and simple recievers you'd probably need three. If you had circular antennas you could probably use two or even one if you can move and the transmitter is fixed. This is WWII stuff.
 
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displacedjim       11/30/2006 11:58:54 PM

Knowing two angles (through knowing their locations and the direcion of the enemy), and knowing one side (being the distance between the two recievers), allows them to find the other two sides (and therefore distance to the enemy). Knowing where they are, and the direction and distance to the enemy, they can plot the enemies location.

Right?

I don't know why three appears to be necessary rather than just two, but several of the passive detection systems/multi-static radar systems produced by countries like the Czech Republic, Russia, and China use three receiving stations to triangulate a fix on the target.
 
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Carl S       12/1/2006 3:24:25 PM
Three antennas because redundacy is good?  
 
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displacedjim       12/1/2006 6:20:58 PM

Three antennas because redundacy is good?  

My guess is that there is a significant increase in accuracy and precision using three line-of-bearing and time-difference-ofd-arrival measurements rather than two.

 
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HIPAR    Two might do   12/2/2006 2:36:03 PM
Two bearings from two know locations are the minimum requirements.  If you plot three and they all cross at the same point, then you can be reasonably certain you have located the emitter accurately.  But, I practice the lines of position will form a small triangle where they converge.  The size of the triangle may be use to estimate accuracy.  DFing is often complicated by multipath receptions so many additional bearings might be obtained to refine the measurement.

---  CHAS

 
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ShinyTop       12/9/2006 7:49:46 PM
Remembering my early Signal training, 1967, some radios used to DF got almost as strong a signal 180 degress and on target.  So two could be used with some accuracy in a normal battlefield situation.  In a guerilla warfare situation 3 were necessary for an accurate fix unless uperators were good and experienced.  I doubt if the situation is the same today.
 
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Carl S       12/11/2006 8:23:30 AM
During my service the training of the sigint people was mostly secret.  Tough to judge their proficiency.  The only indication I had were in the after action critiques of our comm security & practices.  There would invariably be a sigint unit participating.  They were fairly good at DFing our locations from just a few brief transmissions.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    DF ing   1/25/2007 11:15:58 PM
 
Yimmy,
With GPS it only takes one. You take a fix, move, take a fix, bang.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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Yimmy       1/29/2007 5:55:25 PM

 

Yimmy,

With GPS it only takes one. You take a fix, move, take a fix, bang.

 

Check Six

 

Rocky


Surely you don't need GPS to do that.  Just being able to read a ap would be fine.
But you still have a considerale amount of time to move from location to location, while radio transmissions are short for a reason.

 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    D.F.   1/29/2007 6:25:46 PM




 



Yimmy,



With GPS it only takes one. You take a fix, move, take a fix, bang.



 



Check Six



 



Rocky




Surely you don't need GPS to do that.  Just being able to read a ap would be fine.

But you still have a considerale amount of time to move from location to location, while radio transmissions are short for a reason.


 


You are right of course.
 
FYI when I took my private pilot training we practiced a DF steer with two stations, the third station must be good if you have it but I can't imagine it being strictly needed.
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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displacedjim       2/1/2007 12:31:31 AM
If DF'ing is done with some sort of direction antenna, like a hoop antenna, and turning it until you get the maximum strength signal, you can do it with just two separated measurements.  However, that's not how it's typically done when you're trying to get really accurate readings.  Doing it that way is likely to have errors of several degrees if you're doing well.
 
Accurate DF'ing is done using Time Difference Of Arrival (TDOA) because timing can be measured extremely accurately and can yield far more accurate results.  Each receiver post uses an omni-directional antenna, and by itself does not determine a bearing to the emitter.  Instead, each receiver post is linked together at a central station that synchronizes their operation.  The time it takes for the signal from the emitter in question to reach each receiver post is measured, and from those times the location of the emitter is calculated (given the speed of the signal is the speed of light).  The time to each receiver defines a sphere around that receiver.  One receiver only tells you the emitter is somewhere on the surface of that sphere, while two receivers tell you the emitter is somewhere on the isochrone (curved line) formed by the intersection of the two spheres.  A third receiver forms additional isochrones between each of the spheres, and where the isochrones cross is the location of the emitter.  Thus it takes three receiveing stations that are synchronized in operation to DF an emitter when using the TDOA technique; however, the results can be very accurate.
 
 
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