Ideas That Kill

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Subject: Ideas That Kill
SYSOP 1/7/2013 6:09:31 AM

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JC1981 Uk Vs US 1/7/2013 8:08:18 AM

What are your sources for this article? OAS reports US gun deaths at 10.2 per capita, vs WHO figures of 0.25 for UK and 1.10 for Germany (UK total murder rate per capita is greater than Germany, gun deaths lower). As a UK Vs US comparison: Number of Murders, United States, 2010: 12,996 Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2010: 8,775 Number of Murders, Britain, 2011*: 638 (Since Britain's population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,095 US murders) Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58 (equivalent to 290 US murders) Number of Murders by crossbow in Britain, 2011*: 2 (equivalent to 10 US murders). For more on murder by firearms in Britain, see the BBC. The international comparisons show conclusively that fewer gun owners per capita produce not only fewer murders by firearm, but fewer murders per capita overall. In the case of Britain, firearms murders are 30 times fewer than in the US per capita. * British crime statistics are September to September, so 2011 is actually 2010-2011.

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VisigothCAS 1/7/2013 6:56:46 PM

What are your sources for this article?

One thing about murder rates in the US and UK. In the US, a murder is any killing of one person by another and is counted as one. In the UK, killings can be listed as other than murder and may only in fact be recorded as murder if the killer is convicted of such.

In the US, the majority of crime, including murder, happens in the inner cities. Outside of those areas, the crime rate in the US is as low or lower than most of Europe. You can have a city with 500 murders (and in the city the bulk of those murders will happen in a few districts) but the surrounding suburbs and counties will have only a few if any, and it is not uncommon for those murders to be related to city troubles.

So yes, there are a few very dangerous parts of the country but in the vast majority crime is quite low.

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J_A_I_Guy Re: US vs. UK 1/7/2013 9:14:32 PM

Something doesn't add up in those OAS numbers. If the number of murders was 12,996, and the US population was 308 million, the rate was only 4.2 per 100,000, not 10.2. This is more consistent with the numbers from UNOCD, which put the rate at 5 per 100K in 2009. This is higher than the UK, but lower than some other industrialized nations with strict gun control laws. For example, also accordiong to UNOCD, the murder rate in Russia is twice that of the US, and in Brazil it's four times as high, despite strict gun laws and low civilian gun ownership in both countries.

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Toryu88 Guns in South America 1/11/2013 4:42:01 PM

As a geologist in South America I worked in Bolivia and Peru in the frontier areas. I Bolivia specifically ownership of military caliber fire arms is prohibited to civilians. The .22 long rifle is the norm and the escopeta or shotgun is the only other firearm allowed legally. I smuggled in my trusty Field Special purpose Remington 870 along with buck, slug and other shot shells for hunting and personal protection. I also watched the locals try to kill 400lb tapir with .22 long rifle, and promptly lost it as it ran hell bent into the mesquite riddled with bullets leaving a blood trail a blind jaguar could have followed. After helping trail it till our light started dying, I thought it better to retreat to enjoy a rum around the campfire rather than but heads with a jaguar over who got dinner that night.

As usual if your claims about the proliferation of weapons there are correct, then the bulk or them are in the hands of criminals and not law abiding citizens. I saw very few firearms except the formentioned calibers and shotguns in the area of the Amazon and Chaco basins in which I worked.

JAI Guy is correct, the bulk of US crime is found in hotbeds in metropolitan areas, predominately minority enclaves, and not distributed evenly across a community. If you compare the rate of violent crime, not just murder, you will find that the rates in the UK, excluding N. Ireland to be higher than that in the US. Could it be the presence of all those guns. I can recall a time before concealed carry was permitted, that car jacking was as common in Houston as an outside temp of 90 degrees. Now you rarely hear of it happening because the perps don't know who is carrying and who isn't. They don't car jack much now at all. Firearms work. All this knee jerk reaction to the actions of a mental defect leads me to the conclusion that anyone who has ever sought out the help of a psychiatrist, or mental health professional should be registered and it noted on their drivers license. Why abridge the rights of citizens who have never done anything when you can register mental defectives instead.

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Belisarius1234 When it comes to science facts... 1/11/2013 5:01:56 PM

... rely on the BBC for NOTHING.

The organization is a propaganda outlet of no credibility anymore.

Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58
(equivalent to 290 US murders)

Number of Murders by crossbow in Britain, 2011*: 2
(equivalent to 10 US murders).
For more on murder by firearms in Britain, see the BBC.

The international comparisons show conclusively that fewer gun owners per capita produce not only fewer murders by firearm, but fewer murders per capita overall. In the case of Britain, firearms murders are 30 times fewer than in the US per capita.

* British crime statistics are September to September, so 2011 is actually 2010-2011.

Also your US numbers are not CDC, which are THE definitive numbers.

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WarNerd 1/12/2013 7:56:44 PM

All this knee jerk reaction to the actions of a mental defect leads me to the conclusion that anyone who has ever sought out the help of a psychiatrist, or mental health professional should be registered and it noted on their drivers license. Why abridge the rights of citizens who have never done anything when you can register mental defectives instead.

The vast majority of people who seek help of a psychiatrist, or mental health professional are victims of depression who are no threat to others or the community, only themselves. If you insist on registering and tagging them history shows that will ultimately lead to them being ostracize, which will either further their depression leading to an increase in suicides, and will make the others, including those like the shooter, avoid treatment all together out of fear of being publically labeled and humiliate, thereby creating a semi-justifiable paranoia that their society wants to prevent them from being helped, and ultimately resulting in an increase in the very acts you are trying to prevent.

The big problem here was not that the perp was being treated, but that when he started displaying the symptoms that could lead to his actions the medical privacy laws are so broad that the healthcare community could not alert anyone to the danger. Under the law those professionals would have, at a minimum, lost their license to practice, been heavily, and sued. At most they would have faced jail time as well, though that is probably unlikely. And even if they had told the police, the same laws would have kept them from taking any significant action to prevent the tragedy because the evidence would be inadmissible for getting an order from the court to either commit the man to a locked facility (best), or remove the guns from the home (Much less effective, because there are always alternative weapons available. Like an automobile.).

The real need here is to change the laws so that effective preventive action can be taken when people with mental problems under treatment start going over the edge, without making things any worse than they have to be.

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