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Subject: Iranian Air Losses Over Israel
SYSOP    7/27/2014 7:53:24 AM
 
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PMonjo    RC weaponry   7/28/2014 12:12:38 AM
Why not just pack these UAV's with explosive warheads, directional mines or even RPG's, since they are expendable and likely to be shot down by IDF SAMs or fighter planes on first use anyways.  Israel Rafael has already produced the self destruct Harpy loitering drone that is used to attack enemy radar emplacements.  Using UAV's as cheap cruise missiles is not much of a leap and does not take much imagination.  UAV's are also rotary powered and does not emit as high of heat signature than real cruise missiles that are rocket or jet powered.  Could even pack a remote controlled helicopter with grenades or directional mine for use to attack soft targets like infantry.  Throw in remote controlled, electric powered cars or boats that run so quietly and there are many possibilities with attacking soft skinned vehicles or even naval patrol crafts as they could sneak under the target with a few kilos of C4 that could really ruin someones day.  Hezbollah did utilize an UAV to spot the INS Hanit corvette and then attacked it a anti-ship missile afterwards.  So it shows that even a so called "terrorist", non-state entity like the Hezbollah could have their own air force.
 
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PMonjo    Hezb Nassralah's speech   7/28/2014 12:50:26 AM
Should read this speech from the leader Nassrallah, as there are plenty of insights on the recent Israeli/ Gaza round and how it ties with the recent events in the Middle East.  Israel would be in a world of hurt if there were more leaders like him.
 
 
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Blacktail    Told you so   7/28/2014 8:11:34 AM
Looks like Hezbolah and Hamas are starting to understand the Empty Cockpit Fallacy --- the hard way. A drone has no hope of surviving an encounter with a warplane, let alone competing with one, which the USAF learned the hard way back on December 23rd 2002, when an Iraqi Mig-25 shot-down an MQ-1 Predator;
As for the failure of drones against the IDF, I predicted that way back in 2/4/2014, as you can see here;
 
Now the chickens have come home to roost.
 
Also, recall how easily Iraq was able to turn a drone into a helpless pinata. Start this video at 1:50 to see footage of a REAL combat encounter between the IDF and a Hezbolah drone, and watch how fast the drone was turned into cluster of burning plastic;
 
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JFKY    PMonjo   7/28/2014 9:52:02 AM
They COULD do that, but without a rather large support network, i.e., an AIR FORCE, they  are simply wasting their money.  Drone goes up, Patriot goes up...*BOOM* Drone goes down.
 
SURE, IF Hamas had a capacity to monitor Patriot Missile radars, jam them, or attack them & IF Hamas had the capacity to target well & launch a militarily significant strike it would work.
 
IF a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his @rse every time he jumped, either.
 
Drones are NOT a "substitute" for an air force...they are a much more limited platform FOR an air force to employ. If you want longevity, a long-stare @ an area, if you want to mount a powerful radar & loiter, if you want to attack a heavily defended target, use a drone, RPV, Cruise Missile...HOWEVER, those platforms still require a basic infrastructure of doctrine, training, personnel, & ground facilities to be effective. 
 
Without them your drone goes up, the Patriot goes up & *BOOM* your drone goes down.
 
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HR    Blacktail   7/28/2014 10:13:39 AM
I believe the loss of a few drones will not deter anyone from using them since us/they have no other less risky way of gathering intelligence in those circumstances. Informers and spies would be too slow.
 
And the alternative of flying a Cessna bird dog... would that be any more survivable? You need to upgrade quite a bit to make it more survivable.
 
Plus they are built to be very persistent and fly for hours to no end which jet aircrafts are not. So those missions will still be theirs to do.
 
 
 
 
 
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JFKY    HR   7/28/2014 10:18:10 AM
NO...on the Cessna...what do you use for an airfield?
 
They're not gathering much Intelligence, except that the Patriot System is still up....
 
Again, Elint/PhotInt requires a doctrinal/physical basis that Hamas simply does not have & more importantly CANNOT produce, as configured.
 
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keffler25       7/28/2014 10:25:35 AM
Tell that to the Malaysian airliner that was shot down by a Russian BUK.
 
EMPTY cockpit syndrome? What do you think a SAM is? A DRONE.
 
As for RC weapons? How easy is it to hit a sleepy sitting target with its defenses turned off?The INS Hanit was VISIBLE from shore. No !~@#$%^&(*()! UAV was involved at all. Binoculars and portable radar.
 
The Cole (other example) was at anchor and was ambushed by a boat full of idiots who motored out with a load of dynamite. the captain should have been court martialled for that one. A boatload of Arab wharf rat scum from Yemen (Aden) approach you inside your no entry perimeter? Sink them.Let the State Department handle the payoffs tio shut the whiners up and save the American taxpayers a few hundred millions.  
 
The Chinese missile those QUDs bastards fired at the INS Hanit would have MISSED if the damn crane had been parked in the stowed position. The other missile went wild and hit an Arab crewed freighter forty + kilometers beyond and KILLED much of the stupid Egyptian crew aboard who panicked and mostly drowned in the abandon ship procedure. Most inept sailors ever. The freighter sank by the way. Crew incompetence again.   
 
Propeller ICE powered aircraft. RADAR is one answer. And again the idea that you can gain a cheap victory by the myth that an ICE does not put out enough heat for a HEATSEEKER? Try driving your truck (if you have one) for thirty minutes. Put your hand on the hood.; Then put your hand on the ground. Notice the difference? A SIDEWINDER (an OLD one) is 10,000 times more sensitive than your hand to heat. Get the point?     
 
Now that BASTARD and terrorist, Nasrallah, recently wrote a pack of lies about another loser, named General Muhammad Buhar, who some people have been making energetic efforts to KILL Why would people want to KILL such a nice guy? (Buhar, though Nasrallah, that rat, has escaped a couple of Arab assassination attempts himself. Note the word--- ARAB as in SYRIAN. Why is that again?)
 
Could it be because he, Buhar, (Where did his mansion come from?) stole millions of petro-dollars from the Nigerian oil lease revenues, jailed dissenters (nothing new in Nigeria) created a secret police, (Something that was new to Nigeria) and managed in spite of his so-called public anti-corruption campaign to bring Nigeria to the brink of social and economic collapse? You betcha.  
 
How did Umaru Dikko wind up in a shipping container headed to Lagos again? 
 
If you come on this site spouting propaganda, you will meet met with truth. 
 
 
 
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pzkwmkv    Cost effectiveness   7/28/2014 11:41:54 AM
Is there a cheaper way for the Israelis to take down these drones? Patriots missiles aren't cheap. They start at $1,000,000 and go up. I can't imagine the drone cost more then a few $10,000 at the most.
 
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PMonjo    Cheap anti UAV   7/28/2014 12:54:27 PM
Israel is getting quite a deal whenever they receive American handouts as the F16, Iron Dome and Patriots are all foot by the US tax payer anyways.  If you want to go cheaper than the Patriot on defeating Hezb/ Hamas UAV's, you could probably attach Stinger missiles to Israeli UCAV's, otherwise re-program Iron Domes as low altitude SAMs.  Once again Israel still will end up spending more to counteract anything that the other side throws at it.  You don't get any more low cost than unguided rocket barrages and tunnels.  
 
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PMonjo    Weaponized RC?   7/28/2014 12:57:35 PM
Both Hamas and Hezbollah could utilize remote control hobby aircrafts, boats or even ground vehicles and pack them with directional mines, like claymores/ MONS/ MRUD and use them to against IDF ground troops, AFV or naval patrol crafts.  Kind of like the Israel Harpy that is produced by Rafael that is a loitering drone to attack enemy radar emplacements.  Israel seems to expend a lot of capital intensive weapons systems to fight her enemies, while guerilla organizations like Hamas and Hezb could use these simple systems that could counter active defense systems like Iron Dome or Trophy on the Merkava tanks.  Israel cannot continue to afford to drain her coffers without continuous American handouts.
Nasrallah's Quds day speech already mentions their interest with this Israel/ Gaza conflict and they are looking at adopting some of Hamas tactics of tunneling and underground basing.  Even the IDF admits that Hamas is no longer the Hamas of old and has given a far better account of themselves.  And now the West Bank PLO/ Fatah side is starting to get aggitated and may start an Intifada part 3.
Hezb like the Hamas, could utilize tunneling to protect their military assets/ weaponry and by moving them underground for storage and deployment, like rocket/ mortar launchers.  Hezb has far more advantages than even Hamas, where they have the strategic depth of operating in Lebanon and Syria with Iranian backing.  They could then operate on the Leb/ Israel border with these new tunneling infiltration that could also be used to insert commandos to disable vital defense systems like the Iron Domes, bypass perimeter fences/guard towers/ defensive walls before launching their MRLS and mortar attacks into northern Israel.
It is doubtful that the Israeli air force would even have enough ground penetration PGM's to attack all these underground depot bases and fire base tunnels unless the USAF transports flies in more supplies.  Even the American public by then will not have this.
 
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