Mostly steel plates, but I am going to start doing the IPSC thing if my legs hold up. The new project will be to push the envolope on what a semi pistol can do. If we can achieve 4 MOA then should be able to keep all rounds on 18" x 24" steel target at 200 meters. 147 gr. fmj ~2" high at 25 yds. only ~3.5 " low at 125 yds and less than 10" at 150. at 150 yds will still hit about as hard as the service .38 special round out of 4" barrel at the muzzel. This project should also decrease engagement time on targets. should be able to drop a couple of tenths off time for 6 target verse my .45 without optic sights. As a side note, a young man that shot with us that is now a Ranger in combat was a B class shooter. was driving for the CO in German when CO had to go in and qualify with M9. asked young man if he wanted to try to qualify. Shot expert and was asked to be on the base pistol team. He told us that he was not bearing down and was an easy shoot.

"Mostly steel plates, but I am going to start doing the IPSC thing if my legs hold up." I shot IPSC for a few years, till the gamesmanship of it ran me off. I tired staying in limited just to avoid that, but even that class seems to gamey to me. I now stick to three gun matches and IDPA for the most part. Have you ever thought about IDPA? I'm a firm believer that it has about the most relevant courses of fire as any of them. Speaking of steel plates ... my favorite all time way to goof off is set up twelve poppers at 15 yards. The two in the middle are set to overlap when they fall. Two shooters stand side by side and shoot to the middle, the one whose sixth popper is on the bottom wins. No timers or stop watches ... just a lot of brass flying! "The new project will be to push the envolope on what a semi pistol can do. If we can achieve 4 MOA then should be able to keep all rounds on 18" x 24" steel target at 200 meters. 147 gr. fmj ~2" high at 25 yds. only ~3.5 " low at 125 yds and less than 10" at 150. at 150 yds will still hit about as hard as the service .38 special round out of 4" barrel at the muzzel." Now you're touching on an area that has fascinated me since the first time I read about Elmer Keith plinking rocks at 500 yards with a stock Model 29. Lobbing handgun rounds at targets really far away! I don't know why it's so fun, but the bug hit me enough a few years ago I now even deer hunt with a Model 29 or a T/C in 7x30 Waters. As far as using automatics, I got to playing at the range one day after an IPSC shoot and wound up on the rifle range with my limited class Delta Elite. I found even with the fairly course sights mounted (Novak low mount carry with a 25 yard zero) that I could hold damn near dead on at 100 with 175 gr silvertips, and swing the bowling pin back and forth all day long. At 200 my sights were just too course to hit things without luck being a bigger factor than anything, but the trajectory was still pretty flat. I've never used (or even seen one come to think of it) a compensated 10mm, but with all that muzzle blast I would bet my first born it'd work pretty good with a compensator. I can't help but think that the 10mm would retain even more down range energy at the kinds of ranges that you're talking than even the 9X23, which seems like it'd really start to bleed off out past 100.

"Speaking of steel plates ... my favorite all time way to goof off is set up twelve poppers at 15 yards. The two in the middle are set to overlap when they fall. Two shooters stand side by side and shoot to the middle, the one whose sixth popper is on the bottom wins. No timers or stop watches ... just a lot of brass flying!" This is the steel plate game we play. I have been out of it for a while "cause I burgered my self up". Things seem to be back in shape now so am going to get back after it. A comp on your 10mm should realy improve your recovery time on target but it will be way loud!!. I am going to the 9x23 so that I can reduce the muzzel rise and reduce the torque on my wrist (thats what I burgered up). I have hunted once with my performance center 629 and killed a Mule deer with it. As for the gamesmanship of the IPSC shooter we saw that when they came out to play our game. After getting waxxed be a bunch of guys in blue jeens with Bomars on their pistols they kind of came off their high horse or didn't come back. The local SO uses plates all the time for training as do some of the others in the state. Had one instructor from the Mountain Warfare School shoot with us he was pretty good and felt that the game was good training. Now about pistols at long range. I had a S&W 586 set up with a dot sight. this was a 5 MOA gun and got a reporter for local access TV to shoot it. He was talking about how hand guns were only for closs in stuff. set him up on a bench with a 24 inch diameter gong at 200 yds. He hit it 4 out of 6 times. Sort of changed his mind. Have sense sold that gun. the 629 I have will shoot even better. As to the original post it comes down to sights and trigger. Until a person reaches a certain level of skill I think that reliability is job one. A 1911 platform does take more time to master than some of the other pistols on the market today. That said, once mastered, I think that in .45 ACP it will allow you to put aimed rounds on target as fast as just about any thing on the market. Hits per shot, not rounds per minute. I hope that I haven't upset any one, these are just my views. Also it is much easier to hit targets when they are not shooting back.

Glock 17. Why...? Because it's the only 9mm pistol I own.

I would have to go with a Glock in 9mm, although my preference would be 40 cal. Most Glocks are indestructible. The torture testing they put those things through is unbelieveable. I believe our armed forces would have been much better served by going with a Glock. If you transition from a revolver to an automatic pistol, there is no easier pistol to switch to than a Glock. The only faults Gocks have, (In my opinion), is that damn slide release, it's hard on some pistols to take down. I'm also not a big fan of the Glock trigger. I think they should have went with a sraight trigger with about a 5-6 pound pull. The only safety you really need is to keep your finger off of the trigger if you don't want to shoot it. (Just like a revolver-simple). It is a much safer pistol especially for someone who really hasn't fooled around with handguns. You don't have to worry about all of those safeties. I've fooled around with the S&W Sigma in 9 and .40. (They sent our department one of each caliber for testing purposes). I was very impressed with the reliabilty, the ergonomics, and I prefered its trigger to the Glocks. Although I think it could still benefit from a plain straight trigger. If I was going to recommend a pistol for somone just starting out in law enforcement, it would have to be the Glock hands down. Aprox., 70 percent of the police officers in the U.S. use Glocks. In my opinion you can have no higher endorsement.....

While I just personally don't like the Glock, I have to agree on the transition from revolver to Glock as being the easiest. I give it a lot of credit for being what I kind of consider a pistol aimed at the, no offense to any glockophiles, ill trained masses. I think the needs for civilian, military, and police are all very different. I would rank the Glock as maybe the best for civilian use (a S&W K-frame is actually first, but no one wants to give wheelguns any credit anymore). As a law enforcement sidearm Glocks have several real drawbacks to me. The main area of concern is retention situations. Having no manually operated safety makes it very easy to gun grabbers to use against you. The popular response is to issue SS-III holsters (Which I freakin hate!). Ever notice how probably 80% of the people that carry SS-IIIs leave the secondary snap undone, defeating the purpose anyway? There are a lot of documented saves where perps couldn't operate on-safe Colts, Brownings, S&Ws, and Berrettas at all. As well as even more where it allowed the disarmed to transition to a backup by buying a few crucial seconds. People make a very big deal over losing the slide of a Berretta during a struggle if someone was to release the take down lever. I've never seen or heard of an actual instance of this happening in a real world struggle, although it really is fairly simple to do while training. There are several documented instances of Glock slides being jerked right off the frame rails during struggles. One local S.O. had three in the span of two years when they first transitioned. Weapon retention is a subject that I don't think nearly enough people may attention to. Especially for uniform carry where your sidearm is on display, and it gives dumbasses ideas. I think in a law enforcement setting retention should be of equal importance to any other criteria. That's why I think for uniformed carry the S&Ws are best by a narrow margin. Aside from all the basic passive internal safeties and the slide mounted manual safety, they have the magazine disconnect. In a grab attempt you hit the mag release and the pistol is inoperable. One little thing about S&Ws Vs Glocks that comes to mind. It's not so much a factor just between these two, but a factor of stainless/nickle Vs Blued handguns. I like Stainless pistols for two reasons. One is of course maintenance and lack of holster wear. The second relates to instances of holding someone at gunpoint and the impression it makes. At night, there is no mistaking what a bright shiny object in your hand pointing at a felon is. I once drew on a violently resisting felon at about 2 AM in a dimly lit parking lot. His response to a P-228 was "Go ahead and spray me ... that Sh*t don't even effect me!". From head on, he thought it was a can of OC. He came closer than you can believe to finding out the hard way it wasn't. Now I realize that's a very isolated example of one criteria, but from that time on I have only carried stainless or nickel sidearms. I now carry a NP3 finished P220, and that has never EVER been confused with a can of OC. So ... I think this issue of best 9mm should be broken down by considering it's intended use. These would be my recommendations based on my own preferences and theories. Military = the Glock 17. It's tough as nails, reliable, easy to train on, as nearly imperviace to the elements as anything man made. My only reluctance stems from the possibility of negligent discharges with your average private. They should be equipped with the New York+ triggers to address that. Law Enforcement = The S&W 5903 or 5906 for reasons already stated above. Really I would prefer the 4006 ... but we have to stick to 9mm don't we? Civilian concealed carry = Sig P229. Reliable, easy to shoot, fairly simple to operate and available in stainless.

This board need an 'edit' function for users. Sorry about the bad URL :(

i gotta agree with ChdNorm on this for the law enforcment. i have a 9mm 5906 and i love it. as far as glocks are concerned, the reputation is gained by the amount of media coverage they have, and although law enforcement carries them, it is more a product of deals and politics. in my opinion the glock safety is dangerous, and, havign drawn many handguns, the glock doesnt feel right except to a novice shooter.

Sorry ChdNorm but I have to disagree with you about the magazine disconnect on S&W's. I like weapons simple. I think it is just one more thing that can go wrong, (disconnects, excessive safeties and deing levers). I think using your average leo as an example will illustrate this. Some of them carry weapons only because they have to. A good percentage are not into guns and NEVER shoot their weapons unless required to do so. I know you have met some of the same types of dumba$$ that I have. Do you really feel safe with that type of leo going into a AW SH!T situation? Would you trust every officer you have met with a ed and locked .45? In my opinion it's all about handgun retention, tactical awareness and SSIII holsters. I think disconnects are gimicky and are a poor substitute for lack of training. In certain situations it might be useful but if you're in that type of situation where you have to drop your magazine to keep some perp from getting the upper hand, I think you would be best served by busting caps. It would be justified if you're struggling over your gun. When I ran my own shift, I was constantly watching my guys, "snap your holster, search the prisoner again, yadda yadda". It took awhile sometimes for it to sink in, but it always did. When I retired I was carrying a 4006, but I was really into guns and practiced with them a lot. Your average leo or soldier in my opinion would be best served by carrying a simple Glock..