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Subject: American foreign legion
forvalour    7/24/2008 7:17:59 AM
I have seen several articles on this topic (google 'american foreign legion'), any ideas?
 
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luigi.delta       8/1/2008 7:45:10 AM
Lizard
 
"Do you sit at a desk all week ?"
 
Not completely.
 
 I go climbing  a steep hill every day at lunch break with my race bike (1.0 hour a day of strenuous work. Half an hour on the way back, which being downhill can't be considered strenuous work) and I have my half an hour weight session every morning at 06:00.
 
I hope I answered your question in the terms you meant. If not, feel free to ask for more informations.
 
luigi.delta
 
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smitty237    Stole my thunder.   8/1/2008 10:27:22 AM
Wow.  I had a long response planned for Blue Wings' last post, but Luigi took the wind from my sails a little bit.  I really can't disagree with anything he said for the most part. 
 
I actually quite admire the French Foreign Legion.  I think that they will go down in history at one of the world's elite fighting units.  Their military traditions and esprit de corps are pretty much unrivaled in modern military history.  They've always done what they've been asked, sometimes without the necessary resources, but have always found a way to survive.....or at least make the enemy pay dearly. 
 
I was going to respond to Blue Wings' rather nasty post with a little French bashing of my own, but after Luigi's post I've decided to take the high ground.  We're still on the same side.  I just wish a lot of Europeans (and especially the French) would remember that on more than one occasion the American soldier has traveled half way around the world to fight not just for OUR freedom, but for theirs as well.  We just have our own way of doing things.  That doesn't mean it's bad.......it just makes it different from yours. 
 
Still, I need to respond to a few things.  The French Foreign Legion was formed on March 10, 1831 with non-French citizens because after the July Revolution of 1830 foreigners were forbidden from serving in the French military.  Therefore my statement that Frenchmen are "officially" barred from serving in the FFL is technically correct.  Now I know that Frenchmen have always gotten around this by claiming Swiss, Belgian, Canadian, or even Bulgarian nationality.  That doesn't change the fact that they were still French, but the Legion could continue with the facade that Frenchmen were not recruited in the Legion.  Perhaps the Legion's recruitment policy has changed in recent years, but historically this has been the case.  That is as clear as I can make it.  The only reason I brought it up at all is because in my American Foreign Legion model American citizens would not be able to join at all. 
 
You cite the fact that American police and military units train with the French as proof that the American military in inferior to the French.  BW, you can't be serious.  We'll train with damn near anybody all over the world.  The main reason for this is not because we think they are superior, but because there is always a chance they might be able to teach us something that will help us do our job better.  When the training is over we keep whatever we find useful, and discard whatever we think won't work.  Americans are firm believers in flexibility, and the way to remain flexible is have a lot of different options at your disposal.  Sometimes you acquire those options by listening to others and learning from their experience. 
 
I had no idea that the two man "binome" was the cornerstone of the infantry platoon.  I thought it was the four to five man fireteam, but come to think of it, I was almost always paired up with at least one other soldier, so maybe we were doing it, BW, we just didn't have a name for it.  I also don't get the whole "firepower vs. mobility" accusation that Europeans throw at us.  When I was in the Army we called it "fire and maneuver."  What's wrong with blowing the hell out of the enemy before you move your grunts in to overrun their position?  Last but not least, if you had the opportunity why in the blue hell would you choose to fight outnumbered if you didn't have to?  There are many, many times that the United States has fought outnumbered, but if you want to get into the morality of war, I would dare say that the more moral decision when planning an operation against an enemy unit is to bring as many forces to bear against it as possible (after bombing the crap out of it first, of course).  There's no such thing as a fair fight in war.  Pitting a rifle company against a company sized enemy when you have an entire battalion at your disposal is careless to the point of dereliction of duty.  Sometimes it is unavoidable, but I firmly believe the most logical course of action is to try to outnumber the enemy if possible. 
 
I had more to say, but that's where the French bashing started to come in.  BW, I have every reason to believe that the modern French soldier is a capable trooper that would probably do well in modern combat.  Most Americans know nothing about the French military, but we know more than we want to about French foreign policy when it comes to the War on Terror.  It infuriates many of us that French government tries to impede our efforts to fight this war, a wa
 
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luigi.delta       8/1/2008 2:15:43 PM

Wow.  I had a long response planned for Blue Wings' last post, but Luigi took the wind from my sails a little bit.  I really can't disagree with anything he said for the most part. 

 

I actually quite admire the French Foreign Legion.  I think that they will go down in history at one of the world's elite fighting units.  Their military traditions and esprit de corps are pretty much unrivaled in modern military history.  They've always done what they've been asked, sometimes without the necessary resources, but have always found a way to survive.....or at least make the enemy pay dearly. 

 

I was going to respond to Blue Wings' rather nasty post with a little French bashing of my own, but after Luigi's post I've decided to take the high ground.  We're still on the same side.  I just wish a lot of Europeans (and especially the French) would remember that on more than one occasion the American soldier has traveled half way around the world to fight not just for OUR freedom, but for theirs as well.  We just have our own way of doing things.  That doesn't mean it's bad.......it just makes it different from yours. 

 

Still, I need to respond to a few things.  The French Foreign Legion was formed on March 10, 1831 with non-French citizens because after the July Revolution of 1830 foreigners were forbidden from serving in the French military.  Therefore my statement that Frenchmen are "officially" barred from serving in the FFL is technically correct.  Now I know that Frenchmen have always gotten around this by claiming Swiss, Belgian, Canadian, or even Bulgarian nationality.  That doesn't change the fact that they were still French, but the Legion could continue with the facade that Frenchmen were not recruited in the Legion.  Perhaps the Legion's recruitment policy has changed in recent years, but historically this has been the case.  That is as clear as I can make it.  The only reason I brought it up at all is because in my American Foreign Legion model American citizens would not be able to join at all. 

 

You cite the fact that American police and military units train with the French as proof that the American military in inferior to the French.  BW, you can't be serious.  We'll train with damn near anybody all over the world.  The main reason for this is not because we think they are superior, but because there is always a chance they might be able to teach us something that will help us do our job better.  When the training is over we keep whatever we find useful, and discard whatever we think won't work.  Americans are firm believers in flexibility, and the way to remain flexible is have a lot of different options at your disposal.  Sometimes you acquire those options by listening to others and learning from their experience. 

 

I had no idea that the two man "binome" was the cornerstone of the infantry platoon.  I thought it was the four to five man fireteam, but come to think of it, I was almost always paired up with at least one other soldier, so maybe we were doing it, BW, we just didn't have a name for it.  I also don't get the whole "firepower vs. mobility" accusation that Europeans throw at us.  When I was in the Army we called it "fire and maneuver."  What's wrong with blowing the hell out of the enemy before you move your grunts in to overrun their position?  Last but not least, if you had the opportunity why in the blue hell would you choose to fight outnumbered if you didn't have to?  There are many, many times that the United States has fought outnumbered, but if you want to get into the morality of war, I would dare say that the more moral decision when planning an operation against an enemy unit is to bring as many forces to bear against it as possible (after bombing the crap out of it first, of course).  There's no such thing as a fair fight in war.  Pitting a rifle company against a company sized enemy when you have an entire battalion at your disposal is careless to the point of dereliction of duty.  Sometimes it is unavoidable, but I firmly believe the most logical course of action is to try to outnumber the enemy if possible. 

 

I had more to say, but that's where the French bashing started to come in.  BW, I have every reason to believe that the mo
 
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The Lizard King       8/4/2008 6:56:55 AM
Tradition is vastly over-rated and retards change-management & progressive thinking.  I will take good training over good tradition any day of the week....
 
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The Lizard King       8/4/2008 6:59:06 AM
"I can say that France is the only military power that is truly self sufficient in our continent."
 
Was this demonstrated in the in Kosovo War?
 
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The Lizard King       8/4/2008 7:05:08 AM
Also, Europeans focus too much on their forefathers... I don't care what your ancestors did hundreds of years ago.  Your youth is a more relevant topic.
 
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le_corsaire       8/6/2008 9:29:11 AM

"I can say that France is the only military power that is truly self sufficient in our continent."

 

Was this demonstrated in the in Kosovo War?


I guess your are a bit too less focusing on anything. The Kosovo war was not a war between somebody and France, but France supplier troops to  NATO engagement, which by the way has always been highly disputed and even today it is not clear whether it was an illegal action taken by NATO  regarding law of nations. If you bring up any criticism about French activity in Kosovo please be aware about the chain of command ... there is one thing that I don't like, and this is that some NATO parties have a tendency of doing their own thing while expecting others to adhere to contracts and chain of commands, while later blaimg them to be inefficient.   
 
 
 
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le_corsaire       8/6/2008 9:38:41 AM
Concerning the "no French" in the legion ... all the officer corps is actually French. I am French (with German roots - grew up in l'Alsace near German border - but French nationality).  For French recruits there is no real reason why joining the Legion - if you are going the normal career path of an officer in the Armée de Terre there is a good chance to go there as well - if  -as a French citicen your French is so bad that you take the way via the Legion - o.k. - practically noboday would really care.
There are a lot of question Bluewings ... I will try to look into it later when I have more time.  
 
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le_corsaire       8/6/2008 9:50:55 AM
Another thing is the "training with U.S. troops". French forces - like many others - train with everybody, especially with allied nations' troops, so why not with the U.S. (also the Germans or the Brits). Interestingly however, there are always things arising out of the specific task or environment that some nations are really better at than others - and the sense behind the training is to discover these things and see what these other guys have done. It is "training" this means learning from each other ... and not the game "who has the longest ..." - understand ?
 
As I said above (I hopefully did) - most of the differences are a matter of different strategic doctrines. Each command tries to build up their forces and specops forces to fit into their doctrine. This is where you spend most money in (equipment, training) and this is where you spend most time and effort - and this is where that force will be particularly superior. The objective of training together is to explore these areas of superiority of the other partner. So please stop this "X is no mtahc for Y" ... its bullshit. By the way Bluewings - this is also thereason why you cannot really give advice to other nations, as they operate their doctrines, strategies and tactics ... using other tactics could lead to inferior results to them because they can not play their true strength.
 
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le_corsaire       8/6/2008 10:03:54 AM
Another thing is the "training with U.S. troops". French forces - like many others - train with everybody, especially with allied nations' troops, so why not with the U.S. (also the Germans or the Brits). Interestingly however, there are always things arising out of the specific task or environment that some nations are really better at than others - and the sense behind the training is to discover these things and see what these other guys have done. It is "training" this means learning from each other ... and not the game "who has the longest ..." - understand ?
 
As I said above (I hopefully did) - most of the differences are a matter of different strategic doctrines. Each command tries to build up their forces and specops forces to fit into their doctrine. This is where you spend most money in (equipment, training) and this is where you spend most time and effort - and this is where that force will be particularly superior. The objective of training together is to explore these areas of superiority of the other partner. So please stop this "X is no mtahc for Y" ... its bullshit. By the way Bluewings - this is also thereason why you cannot really give advice to other nations, as they operate their doctrines, strategies and tactics ... using other tactics could lead to inferior results to them because they can not play their true strength.
 
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