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Subject: Is Europe ready to be more agressive?
french stratege    6/23/2009 5:35:14 PM
An incredible article when you think it is writen in a liberal (leftist) frenchspaper. It is not the only one of its kind but to see that in Liberation is quite amazing. h*tp://www.liberation.fr/monde/0101570629-l-europe-doit-etre-prete-a-la-guerre Europe must prepare for war
 
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french stratege    typo   6/23/2009 5:36:28 PM
An incredible article when you think it is writen in a liberal (leftist) french newsspaper.
 
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french stratege    typo   6/23/2009 5:38:39 PM
I give a translation from google
 
Europe should prepare for war
34 reactions
By PETER VAN HAM 
 
the European Union has all the symptoms of decadence. Its citizens are convinced that the war can not happen to others and they have never earned their place in the sun (with some exceptions, as in the Balkans), they are promised to live forever in a peaceful world. Dangerous illusion. Because if the Union is proud of its "values" and its "normative power" that allows them to peacefully resolve its internal conflicts, it simply does not know how to defend against the outside, for example, against Russia or Turkey. Two recent crises have given the Union a salutary warning. The war between Russia and Georgia last summer, and the gas crisis in January, insisted that war and brutality in the relations between states have not disappeared.

They are uncomfortable reality for the Union, since its primary myth is that of eternal peace and the belief that states should settle their problems through negotiation and compromise. Accordingly, the Union assumed that the war is over, as if wars were for others, less sophisticated people, the less educated. But wars are part and parcel of international politics and human nature, therefore they affect us primarily. Waging war has traditionally taught that "we" are. In the Middle Ages, Europe was Christianity, and Islam and the Ottomans, our declared enemies. Today, Europeans think ill take the sword to defend what they believe. It is risky. We must not forget that the "barbarians" had defeated the Roman Empire, not because he was culturally superior, but because the Romans believed that they had to fight for themselves and their culture. They had lost the courage and faith.

So Europe must rekindle the flame which animates and affirm its confidence in itself. The EU must wake up to defend its business model and values. Who are those who really threaten today? Not the USA or even China or Russia. This threat, it is, for example, illegal immigration, which destabilizes its model of society, or extremist Islam. In the near future, Iran's nuclear weapons represent a danger for Europe.

In the past, the Union has sheltered under the U.S. military umbrella and declined to organize its own defense. Today, that time is over: it must develop its defense policy, not only to prepare for the worst-that is to say the war - but also to embark on a new project involving the catalyst 'nation-building on a European scale.

We have no heroes in Europe, only national heroes. We do not have a "rites of passage" European or wars or to Europe. Rather, it behaves like the perfect son, nice and friendly. The European Union's foreign policy is marked on the corner of the "politically correct": it always takes the low part of complying with international law, it is the maintenance of peace.

In short, she is caring and nurturing. These are feminine qualities undoubtedly important, but also very distant from the wars that create a shared experience and a sense of belonging. If being "nice" is used to gain sympathy, it does not create an identity by comparison to others. The Union must shed its image kind, feminine. It is essential that it become "wicked" and engages in military action, even without a mandate from the UN Security. It would also see its international partners that "Europe" is playing in the Champions League and at the same time, it would signal to its citizens that it (and not its constituent states), which supports security affairs and defense.

The Union must assert that a war might be necessary to protect our ideals and our common interests, especially when the head is euroscepticism and patriotism is back. Thus Europeans feel European, they become aware that they are truly a whole, they share not only history but also a destiny. Show is more important than talking. It is only when citizens understand that they must stand side by side their interests and values, they say be prepared to make the supreme sacrifice, they will come to realize the importance of the Union, to create a European identity.

Translated from English by Edith Ochs

Van Ham Peter is involved in the Union force, documentary Quatremer Jean, a journalist with Liberation, and Jean-Michel Meurice. Tomorrow night on Arte.
 
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Panther       6/23/2009 6:59:19 PM

   What is most worrying is that a number of rebels that seem to be from chechnya  are among the enemies killed, indicating that they now have found now employment.






That should not cause any worry, i have learned to view this as the natural course of events of the past three decades, since we first deluded ourselves into thinking we can compromise with absolutists. These nutcases will go where ever the infidels are, regardless of whether it is civilian or military! I mean, they actually believe they got some booty waiting for them, after either you or i die at their hands? It should have been obvious before 9-11, and it should be obvious too us now living in a post 9-11 world! And yet it is not! Why?
 
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Panther       6/23/2009 7:53:10 PM
And the German military doesn't know how to handle a weapon or even defend itself? I'm sorry and i don't mean to belittle your view, but i seem to have a bit more faith in your military than you seem too at present! At least, that is how i am perceiving your posts?
 
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le_corsaire       6/24/2009 11:35:32 AM

 
Sadly our Soldiers are still hindered by hypocrit and castrated politicians.  There is however a light at the end of the tunnel since it seems a conservative-liberal  (liberal in the European sense --> look it up !  and dont confuse it with socialist !) government is coming up.   And the German liberal party by the way (which im a member of) has already demanded Bombers and additional infantry for Afghanistan. 

I think the helicopter support is probably the most important part - specifically some type of helo gunship, like the Tigre. However as far as I know (and this might be outdated) the German Tigre version won't be ready until next year (?) and even worse was always planned to be an anti-tank version, so it would probably be an important move to adjust the specs for that type of operations in Astan.
 
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strat-T21C    chechnians   6/24/2009 4:02:22 PM

Yeah but unlike most of yihadees, these are professional mercenaries that know how to handle a weapon.
We encountered alot of them last year, in the mid-late summer they started to show up in numbers. They are not afraid to stick around and fight it out, as the Afghan/Pak- Pashtun peoples are normally reluctant to do. The mech/armd firepower IS a deciding factor in theatre.
 
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Parmenion    Agression is not a good word.   6/24/2009 5:20:25 PM
 
I think Assertive is better than Agressive.
 
The words Agressive and the image of a Europe spanning superpower have too many unfortunate historical connotations.
 
But Assertive? Sure, let's mount up and fix the world. The Americans certainly can't do it by themselves.
 
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Necromancer    FS   6/24/2009 5:42:29 PM
What are the steps that EU must take to appear more aggressive?? Lets see Bush jr attacked Iraq kicked out TOTAL and attacked Afghanistan. What does France plan to do ? Seriously the last sensational thing on France here was Ms Sarkozy calling Monsieur Nick Sarko her little cabbage. Russia and Georgia is not real Europe, they know what is aggressive, not more less- but plain aggressive. So what are the benchmarks?
 
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Panther       6/24/2009 5:57:02 PM
I said I find it worrying that more and more "professional" mercenaries that are experienced at fighting "modern" (well Russian) troops are entering the Arena.  And these seem to be used as second line instructors by the Taliban; I dont know what you know about Chechens but they are certainly a differend caliber and we should recognize this !
 
 Yes, i realize the Chechens are of a different caliber then the past crop of fighters the Talib's and AQ have had to put up with over the past few years. They have suffered from a lack of seasoned warriors ever since the fall of the Taliban government in 2001 and the subsequent campaigns that have left their ranks almost completely decimated of veterans. You could almost say the Chechens are a stop gap for them.
 
 
In my personal opinion German forces can handle any enemy if given what they need.
 
That issue was never a doubt in my mind!


 Sadly our Soldiers are still hindered by hypocrit and castrated politicians.  There is however a light at the end of the tunnel since it seems a conservative-liberal  (liberal in the European sense --> look it up !  and dont confuse it with socialist !) government is coming up.   And the German liberal party by the way (which im a member of) has already demanded Bombers and additional infantry for Afghanistan. 

I know what you mean. I think the US forces might about too be faced with that same predicament on a wide scale, in the next year or two in the region? I certainly hope not, but i have already read some reports that this might be happening already, which is very disturbing too say the least!
 
(Side note:) I am glad you belong to the liberal party, good for you. Out of all respect to you, that however really doesn't concern me in the least. What concerns me is that you all might be finally recognizing the nature of the current threat your soldiers were always going too face in the region, while it seems like our current administration might be taking ten steps back in lessons learned in the AfPak region? I certainly hope not, but the next year or two will tell me all i need too know about President Obama's command abilities, too provide a fair assesment, that is!
 

Sidenote: Even our current Government by the Way is now talking about "fallen" soldiers,  and said it will punish and defeat the Taliban in Kunduz -  compare that to the German rethoric and speeches from last year !

I see. Then all  i can say is: "More of the same please!"
 
 
Respectfully,
Panther
 
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Panther       6/24/2009 6:27:56 PM

 

I think Assertive is better than Agressive.

 

The words Agressive and the image of a Europe spanning superpower have too many unfortunate historical connotations.

 

But Assertive? Sure, let's mount up and fix the world. The Americans certainly can't do it by themselves.


 
 
 
I'm sorry Parmenion, but assertive might work for you if you are wanting too discipline a child? But aggressive works for me right now, currently.... in defeating a very dangerous enemy that our leaders and so called intellectuals have so far failed miserably and nearly utterly in naming!
 
 
Anyhow, the last things Europeans need to be bickering amongst themselves about, is connotations for the correct use of words that define warfare! And yes, Americans are sometimes "stuck on stupid" as well, to coin an apt phrase of an American General.
 
One last thing:

But Assertive? Sure, let's mount up and fix the world. The Americans certainly can't do it by themselves.
 
 It might not be suggestive of anything, and you might not be aware of it, but i found that statement insulting too my intelligence, what little i may i have! If you mean us Americans screwed up, then please say so and be prepared too defend your beliefs! That's all i will ask of you.
 
Respectfully,
Panther
 
 

 
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