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Subject: France global reach is world second now
french stratege    8/8/2009 4:54:41 AM
US readers may have difficulties to consider that but only France has a 100% independant global reach after USA.And far below USA, granted.
 
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albywan       8/10/2009 8:16:33 PM

I apologize it was "Albywan" not you that wrote that...my bad.


And i agree with your sentiment that the USA and the international contingent left their allies in the puppet regime of South Vietnam out to dry.
 
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gf0012-aust       8/10/2009 10:25:48 PM
apols for regressing - but on another issue, ie the definition of cold launch and hot launch for SSBN's.

I think there is a loss in translation.

cold launch is a water/hydrology  initiation, hot launch is a propellant initiated ejection.

it doesn't matter about the ignition process sans ejection.  it refers to the ejection process. 
 
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Nocturne       8/10/2009 10:56:20 PM

Sure you currently have a global presence stretching from the South Pacific back to Europe, but you also have a history of walking away from conflicts - or just rolling over...
The World War parts 1 and 2, Algeria, Vietnam...

 

What was the last war you won? US war of Independence????

 

go make more cheese, you are good at that.

Wow wow just don't get into that.Half the world including french did the bloody part  in WW2 long before US decided to come out from  the island of isolation/"we don't give a damn". And don't even speak about WW1. And French are not the only ones who got bogged down in Vietnam.
So please hold the statements like that!
 
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albywan       8/10/2009 11:34:01 PM



Sure you currently have a global presence stretching from the South Pacific back to Europe, but you also have a history of walking away from conflicts - or just rolling over...


The World War parts 1 and 2, Algeria, Vietnam...



 



What was the last war you won? US war of Independence????



 



go make more cheese, you are good at that.




Wow wow just don't get into that.Half the world including french did the bloody part  in WW2 long before US decided to come out from  the island of isolation/"we don't give a damn". And don't even speak about WW1. And French are not the only ones who got bogged down in Vietnam.

So please hold the statements like that!

Bogged down by a peasent movement....
Yet the Surrender Monkey's here seem preoccupied with their technical misconception on the value of their military...
 
It's about will to fight, something the fall back frogs haven't exhibited a lot of in recent times...
 
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LB    The French   8/11/2009 12:57:33 AM
While I'm not a big fan of France, especially after 9/11, it's worth pointing out that the French can fight as well or better as anyone else.  One might note the Battle of Bir Hakeim where the FF Brigade fought with more determination and elan than any other allied unit during the Battle of Gazala.  The French Corp under General Juin was the key player during the Fourth Battle for Monte Cassino and fought heads and sholders more effectively in the mountains compared to any allied unit; moreover Juin was a brilliant commander.  One could list many other examples up to the present day.
 
This aside I shall never forgive France for 2003.  Once your figure out the US is going anyway making it harder just so Chirac can score some political fantasy points is unforgivable and one can only hope he dies soon and in agony.  There is no question Chirac leading the opposition to the war contributed to Turkey's descision not to allow us to deploy in the north which clearly made the operation more difficult and made grabbing regime leaders take far longer than needed.  All Chirac did was get a lot of people killed including many Americans and prolonged a conflict he clearly knew was happening no matter what.  If I die never buying a thing from France again that will be fine and don't believe for a moment millions of other Americans feel exactly the same.
 
In any case if I feel the need to defend French honor then somebody has gone off the reservation.
 
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Alexis    LB   8/11/2009 2:49:41 AM

This aside I shall never forgive France for 2003.  Once your figure out the US is going anyway making it harder just so Chirac can score some political fantasy points is unforgivable and one can only hope he dies soon and in agony. 


Thanks for your recalling of history, LB.
 
Regarding the invasion of Iraq in 2003, we may not agree on the value of France's action at the UN, but you have to know that the rationale was certainly not to score any "fantasy points" at home or abroad. The objectives as I understand them were fourfold:
- Attempt blocking US attack, reminding that a majority of US citizens at the time were supportive of an attack only with condition to get UN approval for it. That attempt was a failure, and I don't think Chirac had any illusion about the probability of success, but it was worth trying nevertheless: small chance to succeed, but a huge number of lives would have been saved
- Assist all countries in resisting the pressures to help the attack: the US has much influence and means of pressure by itself, but UN approval would have given it nearly irresistible force, because it's very hard for most countries to oppose a decision of the UNSC. This was a success.
- Preserve the value of UNSC approval for more worthy causes. Legitimacy of such decisions would have been weakened had the UNSC approved the attack on Iraq
- Improving Franco-American relations. Not in the short term of course: the French government could not doubt that the US leadership would launch an anti-French propaganda operation (though honestly its verbal violence was a surprise to most French), but certainly in the long term. Some day this war will come to an end, and it's just a part of history that France tried to prevent America from going into it. This will one day be on the "plus" side of most American's view about France.
 
One approves these objectives or not, but anyway this was not about empty political points.
 
 
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Alexis    Russians ruining the party   8/11/2009 3:14:41 AM
About the subject of this thread: in general I approve of FS' position here, but one important caveat is necessary, which is Russia's ability for CVN group attack with its Antey (NATO: Oscar II) SSGN boats.
 
Russia's ability to project power is in a way more limited than France now, because of France's CVN. However, Russia is the only country besides the US with the ability to attack and probably defeat several CVN groups without crossing the nuclear threshold.
 
Other countries including France have the ability to defeat a CVN with nuclear weapons to be sure, but it's not very usable except in the most severe circumstances. Russia's 8 or 9 operational Anteys on the other hand have each 24 supersonic antiship missiles with 500 km range, large warhead and ability for coordinated attack, which would probably enable destruction of several CVNs without any nuclear use before those SSGNs are all chased and destroyed.
 
Russia therefore has some kind of a "veto right" on CVN operations, which obviously they would not use lightly, and which is not absolute since the US would have the numbers (CVNs and SSNs) to in the end gain a -very costly- victory, but which retains notable weight.
 
If Russia seriously opposed a US CVN operation, they could very well discreetly threaten to unleash the Anteys on the US carriers engaged in that operation. I'm quite sure this threat would not be taken lightly, given the capabilities of these SSGNs, and there would be a good probability that the US government backs off, except if the stakes of that CVN operation were really huge to the US, and provided  Russia saves America's face by keeping it all discreet...
 
The argument is also valid of course for a French CVN operation, and for a British CV operation when the QE class is built.
 
It's not the same as global power projection against high-level (US) nor mid-level (France now, the UK tomorrow) adversaries, but it's a capability quite similar, if in the negative.
 
That capability is probably more precious to Russia now than a CVN group would be, because it gives Russia the possibility to act as the world's "opposition" in some circumstances... and maybe to group many Third World countries behind her, because of the chance Russia would protect them against US (or West European) attack.
 
 
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Alexis    French Guiana   8/11/2009 3:30:16 AM

Our native Americans are Americans and they ARE CITIZENS. Guyanese are not French, in the way that Algerians were not.

In general, I don't feel the need to add to the FS - Herald debate, because the facts (or absence thereof) brought forward by one or the other I think are clear.
 
This has to be an exception, because the facts might not be known to most non-French posters: what Herald wrote there is completely incorrect. Guyanese are French citizens exactly in the same way that FS or I are French citizens.
 
French Guiana is therefore not a French colony.
 
 
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SA!"£$    french not no.2   8/11/2009 6:33:37 AM
its the UK anyone in any doubt please read up op TELIC/GRANBY/CORPORATE. Any internet fanboy grandstanding is just that until we SEE what they could do.I personally do not believe (like Herald) that france has the logistics to pull anything of this scale off. And as far as the Brazil scenario goes theres no way ANYONE would go nuclear and would play out much like the falklands except the french would lose...providing they didnt have help from anyone else in Europe in my opinion.
 
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french stratege       8/11/2009 6:38:43 AM
Alexis
You are absolutely right concerning Russian.
Their power do not come from projection ability which is not better than French and even weaker on a global stage (*), but to their power to fight USA, and for that, they are still the post powerfull power.
Thus it is a power denial with a denial strategy.
(*): which is the list of countries Russia could fight in South America or Africa since their CV have few SU 33 and no AEW? And the training does not seems to be that great.However Russian CV still much better than small harrier carriers.
 
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Herald12345    National pride and overweening demands for self respect......   8/11/2009 6:55:16 AM

Okay, let's all calm down.

 

Herald: Yes you're right of course the US could stop France a la suez if they chose to do anything in Brazil. And yes french nuclear retaliation would be a big mistake, even if that's technically what the French nulcear doctrine would call for in that situation.

That is not what the doctrine does. It just will lead to national extermination as FS describes it.  Its actually a bargaining chip.

But why are you criticising FS for maintaing that his country would stand up to the US? Of course in reality they wouldn't. But isn't there something called national pride and self-respect? I just think it's a bit mean to constantly remind FS that the US is ten times stronger. Yes he's being irrational- but isn't their something about patriotism that is inherently deeply irrational, that leads vastly outnumbered and outgunned people to victory in good causes- such as at Thermopalaye or in your nation's revolution? The flip side is that it leads people to declare irrational things in forums. Other than that he's a fairly reasonable guy.

 Not when it comes to war. Emotion has no place in war. Effectiveness in a defensive and necessary war is the only criteria.

Carry on winning the tech and numbers argument where you excel- but maybe lay off being nasty about his country's weaknesses next to yours just because you can? It's a bit harsh- it's his country, he's a patriot- so he's stuck with it. Seems nasty to victimise him for that- he's pro-US for crissakes. When you say to a guy "we can own you if you step out of line" what does he do, just take that? I think your'e accidently crossing a line that threatens manhood and patriotism.

I am not hammering his nation. I hammer him because its fools like him who get people killed and start wars because they are too ignorant to understand real parameters and limits. Do you think that France is alone in this (Franco-Prussian war, World war I World War II, Vietnam, Algeria)? America has VIETNAM and IRAQ....maybe AFGHANISTAN..

I think FS's pride is driving him to say we'd respond with "x" because that's what the doctrine says and that's what national pride demands. I would bet a hundered quid that's not what he wants to do, and probably very uncomfortable and feels a little silly saying it. In reality it's a silly scenario and both nations are close allies that have benefited and awful lot from one another.

Its his stupid scenario and his stupid assertions. He has to live with the consequences of his mistakes, not me..

Why not just ignore it and move on. You really think it's fair to trample on a man's pride, on his respect for his country- just because you're stronger and you can? Keep the debate to tech and MN versus whoever on an imaginary island with no monroe doctrine in place. Then you can have a proper debate- which you'll probably win- that will enrich people with knowledge, not just upset them.

A man should not let pride interfere with objectivity. Do you see me upset to admit that the American space program (NASA) is a JOKE while Arianespace is well run?

Give the poor guy a break. He's what passes for a decent poster these days, will accept some rational arguments, and the alternative is Le Zookeeper. I know you don't mean to Herald, and you have code of objectivity which if their where more people here on your level would work. But when you're a big fish in a little pond, you tend to scare people away. We need non US or UK posters here desperately- otherwise it'll get stale. Keep a away the Russian and PRC trolls, sure. But new ideas- and good, honest debates where people learn new things- is the only point this forum has as far as I can see.
 
Mercy? 


Get you World War One, World War Two, and magbe World War Three. There is no excuse for stupidity  that gets tens of millions killed.
 
Vietnam was bad enough.
 
Herald
 
 
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french stratege       8/11/2009 6:59:00 AM

its the UK anyone in any doubt please read up op TELIC/GRANBY/CORPORATE. Any internet fanboy grandstanding is just that until we SEE what they could do.I personally do not believe (like Herald) that france has the logistics to pull anything of this scale off. And as far as the Brazil scenario goes theres no way ANYONE would go nuclear and would play out much like the falklands except the french would lose...providing they didnt have help from anyone else in Europe in my opinion.
Here Brasilian Air force:
The FAB operates 743 aircraft, including 218 main combat aircraft and 96 helicopters.[12] 479 of the force's aircraft, comprising


 
Total
Quantity
12
57
53
31
76
216
 
So the only potent air defense fighter of Brasil is a squadron of ex French second hand M2000 we have designed and know perfectly, including how to jam its radar.
A French carrier with 3 Rafale squadron and E2C would establish complete air superiority in a 1500 km radius spot i.e all north of Brasil. Currently in July 2009 we have already 27 Rafale M in holding including 7 Rafale F3 (and 55 for Armée de l'air)
Without air superiority it is not possible to win or prevent a landing.
Moreover, France with french Antilla has possibility to base an hundred fighter planes and a squadron of air refueler to support them and they can reach easily as well Guian (1500 km away only) or northern coast of Brasil including Fernando de Noronha island.
French fighters in Martinique (french Antillas) with air refueling can even reach Brasilia deep inside Brasil .
The true is that France can today get easily absolute air superiority over Brasil, and invade it.
Same for any country of south america, or Africa.
 
 
 
 
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Herald12345    JFKY    8/11/2009 7:02:41 AM
JFKY.
 
One or two Frencgh subs are an all or nothing deterrent., They cannot use the escalation ladder and make it work. WE CAN. Theoir force is as I described, a bargaining chip. Once they commit it they DIE.
 
Same for any nuclear power with so few warheads (<100 deliverable). Do the MATH.
 
Herald
 
 
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Herald12345    Ahem.    8/11/2009 7:16:14 AM



its the UK anyone in any doubt please read up op TELIC/GRANBY/CORPORATE. Any internet fanboy grandstanding is just that until we SEE what they could do.I personally do not believe (like Herald) that france has the logistics to pull anything of this scale off. And as far as the Brazil scenario goes theres no way ANYONE would go nuclear and would play out much like the falklands except the french would lose...providing they didnt have help from anyone else in Europe in my opinion.

Here Brasilian Air force:

The FAB operates 743 aircraft, including 218 main combat aircraft and 96 helicopters.[12] 479 of the force's aircraft, comprising



























 










Total

Quantity
12
57
53
31
76
216

 

So the only potent air defense fighter of Brasil is a squadron of ex French second hand M2000 we have designed and know perfectly, including how to jam its radar.

A French carrier with 3 Rafale squadron and E2C would establish complete air superiority in a 1500 km radius spot i.e all north of Brasil. Currently in July 2009 we have already 27 Rafale M in holding including 7 Rafale F3 (and 55 for Armée de l'air)

Without air superiority it is not possible to win or prevent a landing.

Moreover, France with french Antilla has possibility to base an hundred fighter planes and a squadron of air refueler to support them and they can reach easily as well Guian (1500 km away only) or northern coast of Brasil including Fernando de Noronha island.

French fighters in Martinique (french Antillas) with air refueling can even reach Brasilia deep inside Brasil .

The true is that France can today get easily absolute air superiority over Brasil, and invade it.

Same for any country of south america, or Africa.

 

 

 

 
 
German subs with German and US weapons. and a mix of US, Israeli, and Italian aerial weapon systems and a few legacy French airframes in the FAF. The chances for the Chuckles are none too good.
 
FACTS.
 
Herald 
 
 
 
 
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french stratege       8/11/2009 7:41:32 AM
Here a gift from FS
 

Strategic level

France

UK

Russia

Space assets

Yes in national holding

100% independent

High resolution reco, ECM, telecom

Only telecom in national holding

US dependant for reco

Yes in national holding

100% independent

High resolution reco, ECM, telecom

Elint assets

Global 30 stations worldwide

US Echelon dependant

Limited to Russia

First strike deterrent

Yes?limited counterforce vs nuclear weapons, medium vs conventional enemy forces

Yes?very limited counterforce vs nuclear weapons, no vs conventional enemy forces

Yes ?massive counterforce vs nuclear weapons, huge vs conventional enemy forces

Second strike ability

Good since top SSBN

Good since top SSBN but USA dependency

Weak since noisy SSBN

Mobile objectives ability

Yes ASMP (land/naval)

No

Yes (land/naval)

Ability to scale up

Yes ? Technology 100% national

No ? SLBM tech lost

Yes ? Technology 100% national

Total

+++

+

++
 
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