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Subject: Future bright for Israeli aerial capabilities
jaythehistorian    4/17/2010 9:49:19 AM
Israel is the recognized world leader in UAV technology. This is not just my opinion but that of an acquaintance whose MOS in the US army is UAV pilot. This is also the opinion of the Russian military . When they first proposed purchasing Israeli made UAVs, a top Russian official stated Israeli was the world's top developer of UAV adding "even the Americans buy UAVs from Israel". Add to this fact, the expectation by 2035 the US Army will consist almost entirely of UAVs . The only need for human piloted aerial vehicle will be for non direct combat tasks such evacuating wounded . I don't have the link now but it was on an aeronautical industry free website. Although the projected year in question is still 25 years off, each year that passes makes Israel's ability to produce a top of the line UAVs a more important advantage in it's defense. In the US there are political and economic reasons for the USAF to attempt to stay with manned aerial vehicles . The USAF predicts manned aerial will still be predominate in 30 years.. Israel has the technology and resources to develop and build UAVs which would result in the inability of Israel to produce a top of the line Jet fighter bomber to be of less importance.
 
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jaythehistorian    USAF can't hold back the future   4/17/2010 1:30:52 PM
The US Air Force Academy awarded 24 cadets their wings in becoming "pilots" of UAVs.
Link : http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123193882
 
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gf0012-aust       4/18/2010 5:41:08 PM

sorry, I'd disagree by some margin.

the israelis were the first and were the innovaters, but in the last 2 years the US is a golden mile ahead in both development of the technology and the development of doctrine.  they are literally generations ahead in the establishment of force development as co-op assets with the manned airforce.

the israelis certainly hold some niche skills, but they are no longer the leaders.  

we might look to the israelis for local battlefield tech dev issues on UAV's, but at a force development, at a tactical enabler, at a CEC and battlespace integration and at weapons co-op level the americans are the main game.



 
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VelocityVector    jay   4/18/2010 6:03:32 PM

Concur with GF.  Respectfully disagree with majority of your contentions.

Israel has the technology and resources to develop and build UAVs which would result in the inability of Israel to produce a top of the line Jet fighter bomber to be of less importance.

In particular I disagree with the above.  Israel does have excellent human resources.  Just not enough of them to produce an unmanned equivalent of the F/A-35 or US X-craft and related.  Israel will need to buy from the US well into the future.

v^2

 
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jaythehistorian       4/21/2010 11:18:25 PM

Concur with GF.  Respectfully disagree with majority of your contentions.


Israel has the technology and resources to develop and build UAVs which would result in the inability of Israel to produce a top of the line Jet fighter bomber to be of less importance.


In particular I disagree with the above.  Israel does have excellent human resources.  Just not enough of them to produce an unmanned equivalent of the F/A-35 or US X-craft and related.  Israel will need to buy from the US well into the future.


No you don't know what you are talking about.  Israel can. build offensive jet powered UAVs . No they will not need to depend on a country who has a muslim Jew hater as president.



 
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jaythehistorian       4/21/2010 11:25:16 PM

sorry, I'd disagree by some margin.


the israelis were the first and were the innovaters, but in the last 2 years the US is a golden mile ahead in both development of the technology and the development of doctrine.  they are literally generations ahead in the establishment of force development as co-op assets with the manned airforce.


the israelis certainly hold some niche skills, but they are no longer the leaders.  
 
You know nothing about this subject . Israel sells as many UAV to foreign countries as the US does. "Generations ahead" ?? LOL.
Is that why one year ago , the Defense minister of Russia , said publicly Israel was the leader in UAV technology and added "even the Americans buy from them".  Israel doesn't need as many offensive capable UAVs. as the US. They do have UAV s with offensive capabilities.  Israel hasn't been in a war for the past 9 years.  What type of UAV is Israel incapable of developing?

we might look to the israelis for local battlefield tech dev issues on UAV's, but at a force development, at a tactical enabler, at a CEC and battlespace integration and at weapons co-op level the americans are the main game.









 
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Hamilcar       4/22/2010 12:00:40 AM
1. Israel does not have the combat experience. 
2. Israel does not have the capital base.
3. Like Raytheon, General Atomics' "design shop" is special, and to be honest there is nothing like them anywhere else when it comes to UCAS-not even in Israel.
 
Certain companies are just legendary as problem solvers and innovators.  

H.
 
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VelocityVector    jay   4/22/2010 12:35:04 AM
No you don't know what you are talking about.
 
Okay.
 
v^2
 
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Shirrush       4/22/2010 7:14:29 AM
It is correct that the US manufacturers and developers of UAV's are way ahead of their Israeli counterparts. OTOH, the US armed forces are so much ahead of the Israelis in the use and in the implementation of UAV tactics, that the US manufacturers can barely meet the demand. This leaves the Israeli industries with a fair share of this growing market, which in turn enables them to do some R&D on their own without needing to tap the limited IMoD resources.
It is not illogical to expect some stunning innovations from the Israeli labs, although these will not necessarily go in a similar direction than what we already can see emerging from General Atomics and co.
 
There is too much secrecy in Israeli weapon system development, so I do not know what IAI, Elbit and others are up to, but I can make an educated guess that it does not include stealth, hypersonics or edge-of-space persistence. It may have more to do with miniaturization and electrical propulsion, with mission requirements not up till now devoted to unmanned systems, such as search and rescue and maritime patrol, and with generally keeping up with the Jones' and staying in the game while turning profits.
Again, the Israeli aeronautics sector is afflicted with a Soviet-like secrecy mentality, and the veil is usually not lifted until a system is both ready for the market and cleared for export. There's some hope to see something kewl at Eurosatory 2010 in June...

 
 
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Brad Piff       4/22/2010 11:11:55 AM

sorry, I'd disagree by some margin.


the israelis were the first and were the innovaters, but in the last 2 years the US is a golden mile ahead in both development of the technology and the development of doctrine.  they are literally generations ahead in the establishment of force development as co-op assets with the manned airforce.


the israelis certainly hold some niche skills, but they are no longer the leaders.  


we might look to the israelis for local battlefield tech dev issues on UAV's, but at a force development, at a tactical enabler, at a CEC and battlespace integration and at weapons co-op level the americans are the main game.









This is partly true. I believe the israelis has better products when it comes to the lighter drones. But the US are like you said miles ahead when it comes to larger more capable drones. As I have said earlier, I am no expert...
 
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gf0012-aust       4/22/2010 5:40:40 PM
 

You know nothing about this subject . Israel sells as many UAV to foreign countries as the US does. "Generations ahead" ?? LOL.

Is that why one year ago , the Defense minister of Russia , said publicly Israel was the leader in UAV technology and added "even the Americans buy from them".  Israel doesn't need as many offensive capable UAVs. as the US. They do have UAV s with offensive capabilities.  Israel hasn't been in a war for the past 9 years.  What type of UAV is Israel incapable of developing?

actually I do.  but seeing that you apparently know all about the influence that the US is having on contemp doctrine developments for managing hives, CEC between all elements in the battlespace etc... then knock yourself out thinking that Israel is ahead of the curve.  eg israeli track management and integration is nowhere near the capability of the US.  having excellent sensory contact capability in location x is NOT the same as having parallel and/or superior capability at a theatre CEC level.

Israel was the father of UAV implementation at the local battlefield level, they are NOT the masters of competency at the force on force major combatant level. they are excellent at their craft in the range of capabilities that they operate in, but they do not have competency across the force majeur and heavy force on force level.  Do we (allies) look at what they do? of course, but they are not influencing future doctrine at the integrated manned/unmanned ORBAT level.  They don't play in that space and have not invested in it - yet

make the effort to understand what has been said before becoming indignant.  

as an example, the israelis are only just now offering battlespace management solutions to the market when the US and France have had it for years.  BM is critical to UAV integration.  The israelis offer excellent UAV's to fuilfill the role, but they have not  had the CEC solution to maximise effectiveness with the tri/joint service requirements to operate at a theatre level.  Box flogging is not the same as joint force and doctrine development. 

I have a very very high regard for what the israelis can and regularly bring t

 
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