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Subject: If the US Marine Corps, and the French Foreign Legion had a battle, which side would win?
Republican    1/1/2006 4:03:01 AM
I think the Corps would win, but both sides are tough as nails.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Horsesoldier, please note:   1/22/2006 12:05:06 PM
>>You have to know that the Republic armies already have conquered half of Europe when Napoleon won the power...<< And once the major European nations mobilized to react to the French threat, how'd that go? Steadily downhill to Waterloo, yes? >>What about WW1, France as lone rak #1 winner against Germany when for WW2 US and USSR are both together Rank #1 winners?<< I'm not sure which First World War you are referring to, but if WWI counts as a French "lone rank #1 winner" you're not proving anything except the very flawed French approach to war (and ignoring the allies that won the war, but that's besides the point). A credible "#1 winner" would, I would think, not be crushed by their defeated opponent in a bit over two decades . . . >>Really? Then because french troops received the least important objectives they received the half of the 101st Airborn under direct french command and because their materials were the least adapted those thousands of US paratroopers came only with their uniform, gaz-mask, boots and M16...<< The 101st Airborne was present for heavy lifting and to actually accomplish the mission (i.e. compensate for French inability) -- rather in keeping with the general nature of post-1940 American and British interaction with the French military we threw your nation a bone and humored you. Had anything important unexpectedly happened way out there in the middle of nowhere on the left flank, we would also have had to revert to a more coherent command strucutre and dispatch credible forces to reinforce the 101st, since 6th Lt Armored Division was hardly better than Arab units. And they did not show up with only "uniforms, gas mask, boots, and M16." But if they did, it simply proves the French Stratege's take on American not being able to fight without a steady shower of coca cola, etc., is wrong. >>ps, please note that the french division was the first unit to enter in Irak in 1991 and at the end of the land battle they were at the south of Bagdad, cutting Saddam's guard's retreat possibility...<< Since the Iraqis did manage to retreat in good order, this would then be another French failure? >>ps2, please note that the best record of irakies tank kill wasn't awarded to the A10-Thunderbolt or the AH-64 Apache but to the french Gazelles...<< No, it was not. Token participation does not lead to significant battlefield impact. Even if you can claim best performance per capita (a claim I've never encountered in an English language publication) an inability to deploy significant forces still makes the Gazelles irrelevant, and left the heavy lifting to someone with a credible military. >>That is your point of view, but FS showed you some of the battles won by french troops but there are many others but note please that without Foreign Legion in Bir Hakeim, brittish would nether have time enougth to prepare the battle of El Alamein and without the Monte-Cassino battle, US would nether took Rome and go on to the north. << Aside from being defeated in detail by the Germans, French forces did nothing during WW2 that could not have been done as well by someone else. Free French forces were a political bit of politeness, not a meaningful or relevant force on the battlefield. >>Look at your nose, I gove you a bit of informations to improve your culture...<< No worries, I'm quite comfortable with my culture. I just don't deal well with those who are insufferably arrogant but lack anything to back up their rhetoric. If that predisposes me to think ill of the French military . . . well, its track record speaks for itself.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Horsesoldier, please note:   1/22/2006 12:13:05 PM
>>The main French problems in WW1 and early WW2 were that all decisions where handed down from the very top, planned in every detail. If everything went "according" to plan great if not, disaster. Also generals where promoted because of family connections not ability and where drawn from the "upper crust". Very few rose from the ranks. The new French army was built around the American model. Well led and fought with great valor, the defeats of post ww2 France can be traced to lack of will from the politicians than from fighting ability of the military.<< As I've basically agreed in other threads, the French rank and file have tended to fight bravely enough, but have been absolutely crippled when it mattered during the 20th century by incredibly poor quality senior military leadership and equally dubious political leadership for the most part. But, what can I say, I find "thinkers" of French Stratege's obnoxiousness and limited ability fun to annoy. I can understand the inferiority complex he brings to the table, given the basic run of French military history, but his counter claims of superiority and such are, well, silly and indicative of a profound cultural lack of confidence and a preference to put fanciful rhetoric ahead of reality. Not so different, really, from the way most Arab nations do business . . .
 
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:Horsesoldier, please note:   1/22/2006 12:38:24 PM
sad to note td: the best performance as a whole for the accomplished ends, was the French resistance when compared to their military. As a force, they were far more valuable to the allied effort than the french military ever was. when reconstituted french units started the fight again in late 44, once again, with all their equiptment handed to them, they still did poorly...but I can forgive that considering the circumstances.... However, they immediately go back to indochina. Despite vast amounts of aid from the us-well, we bankrolled it(and considering your economy, I dont have a problem with that), the french still did not learn any lessons and were defeated. RIGHT AFTER WW2. One would figure they took something from that period.....Interesting to note, the role of the FFL/SS in some of the fight....Funny you relied on them to do some of your fighting....wouldn't that be like having german soldiers in the polish army at the end of the war? To be fair, you can build them........you just cant use them properly........
 
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BasinBictory    What about the Italians?   1/22/2006 12:51:36 PM
For all the ridicule heaped on the French for their military bungling from about 1870 onward, the Italians in WW1 and WW2 fared little better, and in instances where they faced the French, they got their asses handed to them. Their only "success" under the Fascist regime was against the woefully equipped Ethiopians. When they tangled with any army that had even close to a parity in equipment, they were defeated handily, as in Greece and on the French front.
 
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TDidier    RE:Horsesoldier, please note:   1/22/2006 1:02:12 PM
Visibly you are not able to understand so simple fact as I pointed to you, I'm not paid by federal government to teach you the life, then bye Horsesoldier, my ridiculous friend.
 
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verdunjp    RE:To Horsesoldier,    1/22/2006 1:51:17 PM
'I'm not sure which First World War you are referring to, but if WWI counts as a French "lone rank #1 winner" you're not proving anything except the very flawed French approach to war (and ignoring the allies that won the war, but that's besides the point). A credible "#1 winner" would, I would think, not be crushed by their defeated opponent in a bit over two decades . . .' Well, that sentence proves that talking with you is a lost of time.
 
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NotUkOnly    RE:What about the Italians?   1/22/2006 1:58:26 PM
Yes and dont forget how the German Afrika Corps had to bail out the Italians in North Africa against the British??? The old joke about the shortest book in the world Benn the Italian Book of War Heroes is truse I beleive They havent won any battles that I am aware of since about 400AD when Constantine was emperor of the Holy Roman Empire! But I am no Historian
 
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eldnah    RE:Horsesoldier, please note:   1/22/2006 2:18:07 PM
Regarding French contributions in Europe post 1941. The table of organization for the final push into Germany included The Twenty First Army Group in the North with 9+2 in reserve, British, 4 Canadian and 1 Polish Divisions. The Twelfth Army Group consisted of 45+3 in reserve, US divisions and in the south the Sixth Army Group had 12 US and 7+4 in reserve, French Divsions, 4 of which were Colonial troops (1). Given that the TOs of the American Divisions were larger than any of the Allies, I find it hard to believe the French did a third of the fighting on the Western Front with at most a twelfth of the troops as suggested earlier on this thread unless of couse each French Division was worth three Allied Divisions. To my knowledge the US never had divisions of Colonial troops nor a Foreign Legion so I don't know how to classify them . Are these units French or Foreign, or like the Holy Roman Empire, neither French nor Foreign. (1) Eisenhower: Crusade in Europe - Appendix a.
 
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eldnah    RE:If the US Marine Corps, and the French Foreign Legion had a battle, which side would win?   1/22/2006 2:31:49 PM
Sorry math error, French Forces 12%, an eighth rather than a twelfth.
 
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:What about the Italians?   1/22/2006 7:55:15 PM
I like to bash the incompetant Italian military with the best of the, esp with the pathetic way they got whipped by greece and thrown out of their african colonies by a woefully inadaquate force, and then embarrassed in egypt by a force 8-10x smaller. However, Unlike the French in ww2, there were several units in NorthAfrica that acquited themselves fairly well, esp the Folgore Division. Their Alpini were also good. While their early equiptment was pathetic, late war equiptment became better and superior to allied equiv. An example of that are the "5" series aircraft, with several being able to out fly the mustang and equiv series spitfire. As far as their navy, well, except their special forces, only their submarine and asw force acquited themselves well...I dont think that any ship larger than a destroyer ever sank a British warship no matter the odds. And I dont think the smaller ships sank much. Some pilots did well as well. So, ulike the French, there were several aspects of the Italian military that acquitted them well.
 
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