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Subject: What If: Rommel was the commander in Stalingrad and Von Paulus the commander in El-Alamein
InterArmaEnimSilent    1/13/2006 5:19:21 PM
What would have happened if Rommel got re-assigned to replace Von Paulus after his failure to fully capture the city of Stalingrad in September 1942 and Von Paulus got send down to North Africa to deal with the British. And when the Soviets en-circle the city, Rommel breaks out of the city to avoid total destruction where as Von Paulus choses to stay and fight to the last man in El-Alamein and in the process leads to the complete destruction of the Axis armies in North Africa but the German 6th Army survives destruction. How would the survival of the German 6th Army and the destruction of the Axis Army in North Africa effected how the remainder of World War II ?
 
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YelliChink    RE:What If: Rommel was the commander in Stalingrad and Von Paulus the commander in El-Alamein   1/13/2006 6:01:29 PM
There would be no difference at all. Hitler ordered no retreat in Stalingrad. He is the real commander in Stalingrad. Had he ordered tactical retreat or just by-pass the city and go around Volga river in the beginning, the whole 6th Army Group would be saved. (IIRC) OTOH, Hitler didn't bother too much about North Africa as long as Allies won't sweep them out of North Africa. Therefore, he didn't give enough resources to Rommel, but, ironically, the freedom of the commander to deploy and use his forces with tactical common sense.
 
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BasinBictory    RE:What If: Rommel was the commander in Stalingrad and Von Paulus the commander in El-Alamein   1/13/2006 7:23:10 PM
Well - they were doomed from the start by the invasion of Russia in the first place. Napoleon himself could have commanded the 6th Army and it would have made no difference (oh wait - he DID lead an army into Russia!) Even if Hitler allowed the 6th Army (with either Von Paulus or Rommel in command) to retreat and shorten the ridiculously overstretched salient they created in their mad dash toward Stalingrad, ultimately, it would have made little difference. It's sort of like arguing what would have happened at Pearl Harbor if the IJN managed to catch the carriers and sink them too. The war might have lasted longer, and been more costly to the Allies, but the ultimate result would have been the same. Hitler did not take the campaign in Africa seriously, and as Yellichink stated, Rommel was not given sufficient resources to defeat the British. The Afrika Korps was sent only to be a help to the Italians, whose ill-fated adventures drained away a lot of German resources in the Balkans and the Mediterranean theater. It's interesting to conjecture what might have happened if Rommel were victorious in Africa, routing the British out of Egypt and Palestine - Turkey might have been persuaded to join on the Axis side, which would have added a very valuable ally in the fight against Russia.
 
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S-2    RE:What If: Rommel was the commander in Stalingrad and Von Paulus the commander in El-Alamein   1/13/2006 8:41:05 PM
This belongs in the history section.
 
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Godofgamblers    no Blitzkreigs in Stalinville   1/14/2006 12:02:07 AM
no difference. rommel was so successful in the desert because he could use armor and coordination between troops, artillery, airpower and armor to effect; this is exactly why the germans lost in stalingrad. they were tied down in an urban environment where armor could not operate effectively and artillery and air power were blind. rommel would have kicked ass going inot Stalingrad, but once there, i don't see how things could have been done differently.
 
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paul1970    RE:What If: Rommel was the commander in Stalingrad and Von Paulus the commander in El-Alamein   1/16/2006 5:39:47 AM
"This belongs in the history section" it is a what if... so never happened.... so is not history..... :-) if this was to go in the history section then any debates on "what if China (replace with whoever) invades...." or any debate with numbers of weapon systems not yet deployed would really belong in a "future" or "alternative....." section as they are not actually current....
 
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blacksmith    RE:What If: Rommel was the commander in Stalingrad and Von Paulus the commander in El-Alamein   1/18/2006 9:55:36 PM
I'll take the contrarian position and say it would have made a big difference. *********** Rommel would not have won in Stalingrad. Hitler would have still ordered him to hold an untenable position. Rommel, the true good soldier, would have obeyed. Von Paulus on the other hand had an advantage over Rommel. Rommel had chronic sinus infections and had lived for years in North Africa which was extremely stressful and physically draining. He did not have his best game going on that day at el Alemain. The story, as I understand it, was that he was in the process of flanking the British to the south but turned north too soon, thereby loosing the advantage and then getting ground up by that insufferable british snob (I just had to get that in there). I don't know if that's actually the details, but it sounds good so I'm using it. Von Paulus, not fatigued by years of living in the desert, executes the same maneuver successfully. The British are sent back acrose the Nile, Alexandria falls, and Egypt becomes German. The Mediterranean becomes in fact a German lake. The Germans can now apply their full strength to drive back Operation Torch, securing North Africa. Instead of a three front war (English Channel, Easter Front, Mediterranean, Germany only has to face a two front war. North Africa does not become a base for bombers attacking from the south. The Romanian oil fields are secure. Italy is never invaded. Paulus prepares the defenses at the Atlantic Wall. Nice fairy tale, eh? ---But for a nail, the war was lost.---
 
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Carl S    RE:What If: Rommel was the commander in Stalingrad and Von Paulus the commander in El-Alamein   1/18/2006 10:15:35 PM
Go back & read your history book again. Von Paulus did prepare to break out of Stalingrad. His HQ staf prepared a plan, orders were given to the corps commanders, Sedylitzs Pz corps was to lead the way, and as the relief force approached Paulus initiated the attack. Then at the last minute clear orders came through directly from Hitler, to hold in place and the divsions were sent back to defensive positions. Some generals might have disobeyed orders and saved the remnant of the 6th Army, but not Von Paulus. When Rommel saw that the British were attacking with overwhelming force he had his staff prepare plans for withdrawing back towards Tobruk, where he could resupply. Rommel notified Commando Supremo in italy of his intention and this was forwarded to Germany. Hitler imeadiatly sent a message countering this, and in subsequent messages made it clear no German units facing the Brits were to retreat. Rommel repeatedly protested this asking permission to retreat, but over the nex few weeks the 8th Armys attacks destroyed the German/Italian Army. Like Von Paulus Rommel was unwilling to disobey Hitlers orders at a critical moment.
 
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:What If: Rommel was the commander in Stalingrad and Von Paulus the commander in El-Alamein   1/18/2006 10:43:54 PM
It wouldnt. Contrary to popular belief, The german army was not broke in russia till the summer offensive of 44. Stalingrad was a bloody nose but it did not even knock her down..... I will never believe Stalingrad or Na were turning points. The russian offensive of 44 and the allies ability to minimize the u-boat threat in 43/44, with the big week(Bomber) in feb 44 was the turning point(s).
 
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:What If: Rommel was the commander in Stalingrad and Von Paulus the commander in El-Alamein   1/18/2006 10:49:02 PM
well carl, I was going to agree with you till you made the last comment about rommel Von Paulus was a true Hitlerite. He would not disobey orders. Rommel would and did on a couple of occasions. The last major time was a El Alamein. He might have took a day or so after he flew back, but He did disreguard. There is a quote from him about that and in reference to his men...Icant remember it, but basically he was going to save what he could and he did.....
 
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Alamein    Confusion    8/4/2011 8:19:55 AM
Blacksmith seems to have his battles confused.  Rommel was on the attack at the battle of Alam Halfa, not at el Alamein.  His turn north was enforced and not, as implied, by error.  As to Rommel's health, he had won before el Alamein when also in bad health.  As to the "insufferable British snob", my father, who served under him throughout the North African campaign and in Europe  would have enjoyed a huge laugh at such a bitter comment, as would all his old comrades and his brother-in-law, a GI who served under an "insufferable American Xenophobe", who, in his opinion, won his battles by shedding too much American blood and was not a patch on the "snob" as a general.
 
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