Military History
|
How To Make War
|
Wars Around the World
Rules of Use
How to Behave on an Internet Forum
World War II - North Africa
Discussion Board
Return to Topic Page
Subject:
France Remains at War
Carl S
2/20/2008 6:57:27 AM
In June 1940 the French leader Renaud considered evacuating the governement to Africa. He presented this idea briefly to aome senior offcials and while he found a few who were ethusiastic more of them had no interest and favored negotiating a cease fire. The idea was dropped and Renaud resigned. What if Renaud had formed a group of enough military & politcal leaders who were willing to remove the French government to the French colonys in Africa. The French do not offer a cease fire and the French empire remains at war with Germany and Allied with Britian. How does this affect the course of the war in the remainder of 1940 and 1941? My fist thought is Hitler must make a decsion in late June or eary July. does he concentrate on expelling the remnant of the French army from southern France, or does he concentrate on attacking Britian in the hope of knocking it out of the war, as he did historically? Similarly the Italians must decide what they will do in Africa as their Lybian colony now has enemy territory to both the east and west.
Quote
Reply
Show Only Poster Name and Title
Newest to Oldest
Yimmy
2/24/2008 12:06:50 PM
Would the French government landing in Africa, having lost France, have the means to gain political control over Vichy French figures in power?
Quote
Reply
Clackers
2/28/2008 7:12:38 PM
I guess France gets completely occupied, Carl. Its fleet joins the Royal Navy instead of being shelled by it at Mers-el-Kabir. As you say, the Italians have some thinking to do!
Quote
Reply
CJH
3/2/2008 2:04:57 PM
Good question, this.
Hitler had a compelling obsession with the Russia. I believe that Hitler would have reasoned that a North African French government in exile could have been left to languish until he had pacified all Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals.
Of course, as I have posted in the past, I believe Hitler should have sought to gain control of the Mediterranean immediately after defeating France.
Hitler seems to have been confidant that Britain would not succeed in holding out against him. I believe Hitler most likely had counted on the Brits to join him rather than to fight him and that this was a delusion of HItler's encouraged by Hitler's British admirers such as the Duke of Windsor.
Quote
Reply
Clackers
3/3/2008 11:27:39 PM
Yes, he was aghast that the Brits knocked back his 1940 peace offer. He was upset that Franco wouldn't let him through to Gibraltar. Turkey stayed defiantly neutral until the war was effectively won. He really hoped the Vichy French would join him at one stage, but the Italians upset them occupying the Riviera.
The Mediterranean seemed like a whole bunch of headaches to the Fuhrer.
Quote
Reply
CJH
3/8/2008 11:56:43 PM
Yes, he was aghast that the Brits knocked back his 1940 peace offer. He was upset that Franco wouldn't let him through to Gibraltar. Turkey stayed defiantly neutral until the war was effectively won. He really hoped the Vichy French would join him at one stage, but the Italians upset them occupying the Riviera.
The Mediterranean seemed like a whole bunch of headaches to the Fuhrer.
As it turned, Russia was a much greater headache for Herr Schickelgruber though. One may wonder how he could conceive of such an undertaking as the invasion of Russia after having been balked by such seemingly lesser challenges.
Quote
Reply
CJH
3/9/2008 12:53:48 PM
Some observations related to Hitler's not securing the Med before attacking the USSR, IIRC -
In the Spring of 1941, the Germans had to delay Barbarossa from May to June in order to invade the Balkans and Greece partially, at least, in response to the presence of British forces landed in Greece. The Germans could have used that extra month in their race to Moscow.
The British El Alamain offensive could only have been undertaken because of tanks provided to them from across the Atlantic. Those tanks probably could not have gotten there had the Germans controlled the Med and the Red Sea.
Germany's North African campaign failed in 1943 and as a result hundreds of thousands of Axis soldiers went into captivity because they had no means of escape across the Med. Later in Russia, it was the decline in available divisions that hurt Germany.
Rommel was supplied only with difficulty because of the British control of the Med.
In 1943, the Allies invaded Sicily. This occurred during the Kursk offensive in Russia and resulted in badly needed divisions being switched to Italy at a critical time in the war in the east.
The allies bombed Hitler's Romanian oil fields from bases in Italy.
Quote
Reply
Clackers
3/12/2008 2:29:52 AM
It's a matter of war aims, CJH.
Many of those things you speak of happened in 1942/43, but Russia was the real objective of the Third Reich, and it was expected to fall in a couple of months ... fighting simultaneously on two fronts wasn't the German game plan ...
Rommel wasn't sent to conquer the Middle East anyway ... he was sent merely as a defensive measure to stop a total Italian collapse in Libya in 1941.
Quote
Reply
Carl S
3/24/2008 7:26:49 PM
Yimmy... sorry I did not respond to your question sooner. Strictly speaking the people who became the Vichy Government did not take power until after the ceasefire and armistice. After arraigning for the ceasefire Renaud resigned his post and Petain took power. The other key members of Renauds government were variously resigned or fired in the subsequent weeks and replaced with inital leaders who became the Vichy regime.
Had Renaud enough support for moving the government to Africa he & his supporters would have remained in power in the following months and the others would have to choose to follow or stay in France. It is likely the Germans would have tried to set up a collrabanationist government as with Norway & some of the other occupied nations, but that government would have not have the legitimacy that the Vichy government had as they directly inherited power from the elected government. In other words had Renaud been able to move the government to Africa the Vichy government never would have existed.
Quote
Reply
Carl S
3/24/2008 7:55:04 PM
"I guess France gets completely occupied, Carl. Its fleet joins the Royal Navy instead of being shelled by it at Mers-el-Kabir. As you say, the Italians have some thinking to do!"
Clackers... yes indeed the Italian have something to think about. The combined Allied fleet in the Mediterrainian outnumbers the Italian between 2-1 & 3-1. The Italian airforce in the summer of 1940 had not yet recived many of the new modern aircraft and few were in production. Conversely the French had placed huge orders for aircraft with the US manufactors. The intial deliverys of just 300+ had arrived before the defeat. In transit were over three hundred more with over 1000 ordered in production. The French airforce was in the act of transfering its remaining best aircraft to Africa when the ceasefire orders came. That would be between 400 & 600 more aircraft. Plus the support equipment and parts brought from the US and France. Add in the few hundred aircraft already in Morroco, Algeria, and Tunis and the French have nearly 2000 aircraft to harrass the italians in Sicilly and Lybia. On the ground the French had roughly ten depot or training divsions with small arms and artillery. Augment those with whatever that can be evacuated from France and in a couple months a couple corps of five or six divsions can be formed up on the Tunisian/Lybian border.
Then there are British reinforcements. With the ports like Algers, Oran, and Tunis in Allied hands it makes much more sense for Britian to send its reinforcements to Tunisia rather than Egypt. They arrive on a battle fron nearly two months earlier. And, from the railhead at Sfaz or Gabes it is only 350 kilometers to Tripoli, as opposed to 1500+ kilometers from the railhead at Mersa Matruh in Egypt. Once the danger of invasion of Britian recedes in October then the RAF can begain sending its extra squadrons to help the French in Tunisia.
Quote
Reply
Latest
News
Most
Read
Most
Commented
Hot
Topics
PHILIPPINES: The Plan To Stop China
PROCUREMENT: USMC Builds Their Backup System
MURPHY'S LAW: How Islam Breeds Defeat In The Air
SURFACE FORCES : Saar For The Rest Of Us
NIGERIA: The Hills Are Alive With The Sound Of Burning Churches
WINNING: Victory For The Bad Guys In Darfur
ATTRITION: The Destruction Of The Syrian Air Force
IRAQ: Holding Off The Holocaust
AIR DEFENSE: Patriot Gains A Longer Reach Against Missiles
PROCUREMENT: How Israeli Tech Gets To Eager Moslem Customers
MURPHY'S LAW: How The Generals Learned To Tolerate The Internet
YEMEN: Al Qaeda Scrambles To Survive
AFGHANISTAN: Taliban Divided On Making Peace
ISRAEL: Palestinians Inspired, Confused And Divided By Syria
MURPHY'S LAW: The Search For Politically Correct Weapons
COUNTER-TERRORISM: Why Syrian Rebels Have Their Own Internal Civil War
INFORMATION WARFARE: Data Mining Screws The Pirates
RUSSIA: The Red Army Gets Its Mojo Back
INFORMATION WARFARE: NetTraveler Joins Red October
WARPLANES: Yet More New Arrival Dates For The F-35
ARTILLERY: Caesar Gets Bulletproof, Just In Case
INDIA-PAKISTAN: Dark Days For The Generals
NAVAL AIR: U.S. Navy Ships Get a New UAV
INTELLIGENCE: How To Spot North Korean Spies
PROCUREMENT: Russia Battles Incompetent Shipyards
MURPHY'S LAW: The Chinese Edge Over South Asia
SYRIA: A Bloody Summer Guaranteed
SUDAN: Misery
NAVAL AIR: Russia Plays Catch Up
IRAN: The Sure Thing
Subscribe to Our RSS Feed
Attrition: The Destruction Of The Syrian Air Force
WARS Iraq: Holding Off The Holocaust
Air Defense: Patriot Gains A Longer Reach Against Missiles
Procurement: How Israeli Tech Gets To Eager Moslem Customers
Information Warfare: Data Mining Screws The Pirates
Murphy's Law: How The Generals Learned To Tolerate The Internet
Murphy's Law: The Search For Politically Correct Weapons
WARS Russia: The Red Army Gets Its Mojo Back
WARS Yemen: Al Qaeda Scrambles To Survive
WARS Israel: Palestinians Inspired, Confused And Divided By Syria
WARS Afghanistan: Taliban Divided On Making Peace
Artillery: Caesar Gets Bulletproof, Just In Case
Warplanes: Yet More New Arrival Dates For The F-35
Counter-Terrorism: Why Syrian Rebels Have Their Own Internal Civil War
WARS India-Pakistan: Dark Days For The Generals
Information Warfare: NetTraveler Joins Red October
Naval Air: U.S. Navy Ships Get a New UAV
Intelligence: How To Spot North Korean Spies
Procurement: Russia Battles Incompetent Shipyards
Murphy's Law: The Chinese Edge Over South Asia
WARS Syria: A Bloody Summer Guaranteed
Naval Air: Russia Plays Catch Up
Intelligence: World War II LST Threatens China
NBC Weapons: New Nukes Overshadowed By Massive Retirements
WARS Iran: The Sure Thing
MURPHY'S LAW: The Search For Politically Correct Weapons
SYRIA: A Bloody Summer Guaranteed
MURPHY'S LAW: Russian Diplomats Wield Their Missiles Deftly
IRAN: The Sure Thing
IRAQ: Holding Off The Holocaust
WARPLANES: Yet More New Arrival Dates For The F-35
INTELLIGENCE: World War II LST Threatens China
SUBMARINES: American SSN Fleet Shrinks
COUNTER-TERRORISM: Why Syrian Rebels Have Their Own Internal Civil War
NIGERIA: The Hills Are Alive With The Sound Of Burning Churches
MURPHY'S LAW: How The Generals Learned To Tolerate The Internet
ATTRITION: The Destruction Of The Syrian Air Force
RUSSIA: The Red Army Gets Its Mojo Back
SURFACE FORCES : Saar For The Rest Of Us
MURPHY'S LAW: How Islam Breeds Defeat In The Air
WINNING: Victory For The Bad Guys In Darfur
ARTILLERY: Caesar Gets Bulletproof, Just In Case
INTELLIGENCE: Chinese Spies Slip Into India
INDIA-PAKISTAN: Dark Days For The Generals
PROCUREMENT: USMC Builds Their Backup System
Iraq: Holding Off The Holocaust
Procurement: USMC Builds Their Backup System
Surface Forces: Saar For The Rest Of Us
Leadership: Shut Up You Whore,
Murphy's Law in Action: How Islam Breeds Defeat In The Air
Who's Winning: Victory For The Bad Guys In Darfur
Nigeria: The Hills Are Alive With The Sound Of Burning Churches
Philipines: The Plan To Stop China
Books of Interest
Gettysburg: The Last Invasion
American Gun: A History of the U.S. in Ten Firearms
The Chinese Information War: Espionage, Cyberwar, Communications Control and Related Threats to United States Interests
The Guns at Last Light: The War in Western Europe, 1944-1945 (Liberation Trilogy)
From Amazon
News
How To Make War
Wars Around The World
Austin Bay's On Point
StrategyTalk
Dirty Little Secrets
Features
Al Nofi's CIC
Prediction Market
Wargames
Measure of Respect
On War and Warfare
Videos
Photos
Jokes
Community
Military Discussion Boards
Military Jokes
Military Photos
Military Book Reviews
Military Movie Reviews
StrategyPage
Subscribe
Login
Feedback
About Us
Search
Account Manager
Advertise With Us
Search