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Subject: Speculative Terrorist/Insurgent Casualty Rates
swhitebull    11/20/2006 10:56:27 AM
From National Review: = Some fascinating statistics about the war on terror 11/20 08:21 AM Every day, we are reminded of how many fine men and women have paid the ultimate price in the war on terror. I began to wonder, what is the casualty rate for the other side in this war? In Iraq, I?ve seen several sources cite ?about 55,000? insurgents killed; they?re listed as ?Iraqi insurgents,? but I have not seen any specification of what percentage are Iraqi and what percentage are foreign fighters. As of this writing, the number of U.S. troops who have died in Iraq stands at 2,867. I?ve also seen the figure 2,493 for deaths from hostile action. This suggests that about 22 bad guys are killed for every U.S. combat death; 19 to 1 if you use the total U.S. death figure. I can find no clear and specific number as to how many Taliban and al-Qaeda have been killed in Afghanistan since the start of hostilities there in 2001. I would prefer a better source than Wikipedia, but they list 5,500 killed and 1,000 captured. According to Wikipedia, 187 Americans have died in hostile action, 102 died in non-hostile action. Again, about 29 to 1 in terms of combat deaths, or 19 to 1 in terms of all U.S. deaths. (I also note that CIA Director Michael Hayden stated on the five year anniversary of 9/11 that the U.S. had killed or captured more than 5,000 since the attacks. I presume that at least some of that number represents strikes from Hellfire missiles in places like Pakistan and Yemen and perhaps other places where the reach of the U.S and its allies has eliminated al-Qaeda members and their allies.) Are those ratios about as good as we can possibly expect against a non-uniformed foe who hides among civilians and uses IEDs, car bombs, and explosives in backpacks instead of tanks and infantry? If you start from the assumption that the U.S. is in a war with the ideology of jihad, Islamism, Islamo-fascism, whatever you prefer to call the mentality that the murder of nonbelievers is a holy duty, and that there is no alternative to fighting and killing this foe, than by these measures both Iraq and Afghanistan are exceptionally effective offensives in this war. The bad guys who die on a battlefield in those faraway places cannot detonate a suicide belt in the middle of Times Square. I?m sure there will be those who will contend that some of the insurgents killed in Iraq are only fighting for their homeland, and who would never ever in a million years join an international jihadist organization like al-Qaeda. I am sure there are those who will also contend that ?we?re creating terrorists? with our policies, that so many of these young Arab and Muslim males would be living in perfect harmony with the West, if only we had pursued different policies in the Middle East. Yes, yes, it?s not what they?re hearing from their imam, or at their madrassa, or on the Internet or from their rabidly anti-American media and political leaders; it?s entirely our policies that motivate sensible young men to become suicide bombers. I tend to believe that if you?re willing to blow yourself up in Sadr City, you?re probably willing to consider blowing yourself up in Seattle. If you?re willing to wire a car bomb in Kabul, it?s not unthinkable that you might try the same in an American city. As the new Democratic Congressional majorities attempt to hammer out a new Iraq policy, they would be wise to keep an eye on the casualties on the other side of the battle. UPDATE: Over at North Shore Journal / , they recently started a project to keep track of terrorist and insurgent deaths. Unfortunately, they only began keeping records since November 1. Yet in a half a month or so, 144 enemy dead recorded in Iraq, 34 recorded in Afghanistan. swhitebull
 
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shek       11/20/2006 8:38:18 PM
Faulty analysis.  Body counts aren't the path to victory.  That isn't to say that bring death to terrorists is unnecessary - only that it isn't a very useful metric for progress.  The useful metric would be whether the pool of terrorists is shrinking or increasing - the answer to this seems to be that their number is growing.
 
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Panther       11/20/2006 9:27:38 PM

Faulty analysis.  Body counts aren't the path to victory.  That isn't to say that bring death to terrorists is unnecessary - only that it isn't a very useful metric for progress.  The useful metric would be whether the pool of terrorists is shrinking or increasing - the answer to this seems to be that their number is growing.



I respectfully disagree, it seems body count's might be the way to victory. Except, it's the other side which is employing that strategy against us.
 
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Yimmy       11/20/2006 9:51:44 PM
If RPG Pete'of'Allah dies, his five brothers will take up arms to avenge him, and his two sisters will encourage his friends to strap explosives to themselves and grab a few virgins on the way to Hell.
 
If Private John Smith dies, political pressure builds to pull our troops out of the war zone.
 
Quite a difference in mentality.
 
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Bob       11/20/2006 11:41:20 PM
Well if you get some Lancet team to go to Ramadi and knock on the doors of 20 houses, and then estimate the amount of insurgent deaths, then we've probably killed at the minimum 3,574,203 insurgents since march 2003. :)

Just from following day to day things since the beginning, I'd say 75,000 is a reasonable estimate. But I think in terms of estimating body counts, if you wanna go that route, "Scores" is the perfect description for this war.

 
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Plutarch    COIN OPS   11/21/2006 1:41:06 AM
 A 1 to 20 ratio  is not unusal in COIN ops.  In  Malaya  it was roughly 1 to 20  (350 British vs. 6710 MRLA) and if you  factor  in home troops it's  1 to 3.5.  If we factor in Iraqi troops that have been killed then we have a 1 to 5 kill ratio.  Obviously the terrorists can replenish their ranks as the suspected number of insurgents was orginally thought to be 5,000 and then no more than 20,000.  
US casualty rates are pretty close to the same as last year while Iraqi casualty rates have gone up, and our force ratios have not changed.  We have currently in Iraq 150,000 coalition troops vs.  roughly 50,000 insurgents/terrorists/militas (3 to 1) with maybe 100-150,000 effective Iraqi troops, for a total of maybe a 6 to 1 force ratio.  A succesful COIN op would have a 10 to 1 force ratio or in the case of Iraq another 150-200,000 troops. In  Malaya the British had a 10 to 1 force ratio without including the Home Guard, with the Home Guard it was about 40 to 1. So the number of troops matters more than the number of insurgents you kill.  Blanketing an area with friendly troops deters insurgents and stifles recuriting efforts.  Without those troops a vaccum is created and is easily filled by insurgent groups.

 

 
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shek       11/21/2006 7:04:51 AM

 A 1 to 20 ratio  is not unusal in COIN ops.  In  Malaya  it was roughly 1 to 20  (350 British vs. 6710 MRLA) and if you  factor  in home troops it's  1 to 3.5.  If we factor in Iraqi troops that have been killed then we have a 1 to 5 kill ratio.  Obviously the terrorists can replenish their ranks as the suspected number of insurgents was orginally thought to be 5,000 and then no more than 20,000.  

US casualty rates are pretty close to the same as last year while Iraqi casualty rates have gone up, and our force ratios have not changed.  We have currently in Iraq 150,000 coalition troops vs.  roughly 50,000 insurgents/terrorists/militas (3 to 1) with maybe 100-150,000 effective Iraqi troops, for a total of maybe a 6 to 1 force ratio.  A succesful COIN op would have a 10 to 1 force ratio or in the case of Iraq another 150-200,000 troops. In  Malaya the British had a 10 to 1 force ratio without including the Home Guard, with the Home Guard it was about 40 to 1. So the number of troops matters more than the number of insurgents you kill.  Blanketing an area with friendly troops deters insurgents and stifles recuriting efforts.  Without those troops a vaccum is created and is easily filled by insurgent groups.

 




Plutarch,

I'd even argue that the force ratios derived from Malaya woud underestimate what you would need for Iraq given that Malaya was isolated due to its geography - while I don't see foreign infiltration as such a huge problem in Iraq in terms of numbers, the sanctuary and financial flows from bordering countries has a huge impact, and so we'd need more to fill the role that water did for Malaya.  That being said, the most important use for troops would be to deploy among the population. 

BTW, have you seen the COIN compilation issue from Military Review?
 
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DarthAmerica    Shek Reply   11/21/2006 12:44:34 PM

Faulty analysis.  Body counts aren't the path to victory.  That isn't to say that bring death to terrorists is unnecessary - only that it isn't a very useful metric for progress.  The useful metric would be whether the pool of terrorists is shrinking or increasing - the answer to this seems to be that their number is growing.

I agree that shrinking the pool of terrorist is the only solution. I'd add that there is only one way to do that. History and current events are proving me correct. The solution is this...

"So I say with firm conviction what we must do. We must make public that we are at war with radical islam. Allied Nations internal security forces must identify any institution or people that preach Jihad or radical islam. Upon locating them, they must be driven out of our homelands without exception. And when they are found abroad, they must be destroyed with extreme prejudice by our military. Again, no exceptions and this includes the nations that support them. Man, woman and child. No one who is a part of this Alien Ideology must be spared. Its harsh I know. But the women and children are a part of the ideology. If my words sound too harsh, simply watch a video interview of a palestinian suicide bombers mother. They are hardly regretful.

Any talk of mercy or rule of law in regard to our methods is frankly, naive and stupid. I understand the politics and such. But these people openly admit that they are trying to obtain weapons of mass destruction for use against us! The most powerful of all weapons. And I dont think anyone doubts that when they get them and the means to deliver, they will use them. This is TOTAL WAR. At least to one side it is. And whats good for the goose is good for the gander. So I say lets burn these monsters to the ground. Just like we would have to the Soviets if they attacked us. Did President Kennedy not tell the Russians we would rather go to nuclear war than live under the unbrella of death? And lets do it preemptively any chance we get. Why? Because when you are dealing with WMD, you may not get a chance to retaliate. At least not in a way that will make much difference to those who will be killed by the thousands or millions if the Radicals are allowed to survive. Infact, key to the survival of this Alien Ideology is us letting them live. They know they could never hope to fight us off if we ever got serious. But they are counting on us not to get serious until its too late. And when its too late, we will have suicide bomber exploding daily in our lands, a mushroom cloud and many other horrors. It will be war without end. Thats why we have to dig these murderous and wicked radicals out while we still can.

To Americans:
By histories standards. We are a peaceful benevolent people. But there are those who watch with great interest our war on terror. Enemies, some old with debts to settle. And some new, opportunist. All envious of our rapid rise to world dominance. Vultures, waiting to prey on our carcasses. If we dont take steps to quickly end this war. Our swords will become dull and souls weary of battle. They they will come for us in our moment of distress. And we will be swept away just as any great society is when it gets complacent. So we must not hesitate, show mercy or waiver if we hope to preserve our way of life. We are at war. Now lets act like it. Then, we can have peace." ---DA

"http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/30-53301.aspx"

I wrote that over a year ago and it is being proven more correct with each passing day. This isn't a normal COIN operation.



DA
 
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FJV       11/21/2006 1:23:55 PM
The numbers show that the average fundamentalist fanatic is little more than cannon fodder. This is in some way to be expected. The regimes involved are very carefull about which people will have access to serious military capabilities. The majority of the terrorist's loyality to a dictatorship is questionable. Even Iran might be thought of as not Islamic enough by these guys.
- Any dictator that trains competent snipers runs the risk of having that competent sniper kill him.
- Any dictator that trains competent guerrillas runs the risk of fighting them.
- Any dictator that trains competent generals runs the risk of having a coup d'etat by one of those generals.
etc. etc.

For practical reasons such govts only allow limited real military options for their fundamentalists. Such options are of course more damaging to democracies than dictatorships.







 
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Plutarch    Shek Response   11/21/2006 5:14:49 PM




 A 1 to 20 ratio  is not unusal in COIN ops.  In  Malaya  it was roughly 1 to 20  (350 British vs. 6710 MRLA) and if you  factor  in home troops it's  1 to 3.5.  If we factor in Iraqi troops that have been killed then we have a 1 to 5 kill ratio.  Obviously the terrorists can replenish their ranks as the suspected number of insurgents was orginally thought to be 5,000 and then no more than 20,000.  



US casualty rates are pretty close to the same as last year while Iraqi casualty rates have gone up, and our force ratios have not changed.  We have currently in Iraq 150,000 coalition troops vs.  roughly 50,000 insurgents/terrorists/militas (3 to 1) with maybe 100-150,000 effective Iraqi troops, for a total of maybe a 6 to 1 force ratio.  A succesful COIN op would have a 10 to 1 force ratio or in the case of Iraq another 150-200,000 troops. In  Malaya the British had a 10 to 1 force ratio without including the Home Guard, with the Home Guard it was about 40 to 1. So the number of troops matters more than the number of insurgents you kill.  Blanketing an area with friendly troops deters insurgents and stifles recuriting efforts.  Without those troops a vaccum is created and is easily filled by insurgent groups.



 








Plutarch,


I'd even argue that the force ratios derived from Malaya woud underestimate what you would need for Iraq given that Malaya was isolated due to its geography - while I don't see foreign infiltration as such a huge problem in Iraq in terms of numbers, the sanctuary and financial flows from bordering countries has a huge impact, and so we'd need more to fill the role that water did for Malaya.  That being said, the most important use for troops would be to deploy among the population. 


BTW, have you seen the COIN compilation issue from Military Review?


Shek,
Yeah you are right about Malaya, it only had a small land border between it and Thailand.  Of course Ching Peng and a small cadre held out there for decades after the Emergency was declared over.  He finally made "peace" with Malaysia in 1989.  It's scary to think about scenarios in Iraq with their wide open borders, a determined terrorist cell or cells could hold out for a long time.
 
I have not seen the COIN compilation issue I will have to check it out.  Thanks
 
Plutach
 
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jastayme3       11/30/2006 9:28:10 AM
Terrorists can be gotten anywhere. They are easily aquired and expendable.
What makes a terrorist group is not terrorist minions. Nor is it terrorist godfathers like Zarquwai. It is terrorist technicians. Professional intriguers, bombmakers, gunnrunners. How many have we killed? How many have we turned? A lot of these sorts are mercenaries-how much do they cost? If we have a new Phoenix program(or the Iraqis-they will be messier about it but will avoid complications by the way), we can hurt them badly.
We have pretty obviously eliminated a number of godfathers. Getting just one doesn't matter-he will be replaced. Getting a lot of them must have caused confusion and power struggles.
The chief strategic advantage of killing of minions is in psy war. Apparently some in Saudi Arabia are noticeing that the foolish hotheads who go are not coming back. This sends a message.
So the real question is not how many have been killed, but how much have they been hurt.


 
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