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Subject: Iraq is indeed another Vietnam for America
reefdiver    2/24/2007 12:41:08 AM
I'm convinced that Iraq has indeed become America's new "Vietnam". How so? * The US is again fighting an enemy counting more on manipulating the US media in destroying American stamina and morale than in winning battles. They don't win any battles - they just win television sound-bite time. A very small minority has their (horrific) vision and hopes televised. Its once again looking like a good strategy. * The US is fighting a proxy war with a foe being largely funded and provided arms by another country or countries. Such a war has the potential to go on indefinitely ala Vietnam. * A liberal anti-war congress is once again looking to assure that American does not win, but rather decides to give up. They're putting more effort into fighting the President and the military than they're willing to put into fighting the enemy. And the enemy, noticing their actions, will only ratchet up their efforts - killing more Americans and Iraqi's (in ways to attract the most media attention). I believe this last fact is impossible to deny at this point. Congress is directly endangering American soldiers. * Politics are dictating the war, resulting in ROE's dangerous for American soldiers (e.g. the Shia militia's have been largely left alone until recently and will probably never be disarmed and dismantled.) * The US is unwilling to attack the source of the continuing problem at this point - Iran - just as they were for the most part unwilling to directly attack North Vietnam for most of the Vietnam war. * Once again the US may simply pull out - abandoning people the US promised hope to. Its possible another million civilians could be killed - just like in Vietnam (although Saudi-Arabia has promised to intercede if this starts happening - talk about trouble...) Its a proven formula the enemy is using. Its almost guaranteed to work. They know this and have told us so. So I say - quit denying its another Vietnam because it is. I believe the liberal Democrats are trying to do their best to assure it is. They want another Vietnam, its in their power to assure such, and they're going to do it. They'll do anything in their power, at any cost, to attempt to shame Bush and the Republicans. They're determined to see their predictions come true. So please tell me I've got it all wrong...
 
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sofa       3/6/2007 12:52:12 PM




bigfella - How would you defeat our current enemy, who is using PR and violence to reduce our will?

 

Sofa,

 Happy to have a grownup discussion about this if you are. Rather than go off on the wrong track, however, I'll get you to define a few terms so that I know precisely what I am talking about:

 1) Are you just talking about Iraq, or is this about the broader struggle against Revolutionary Islam? This is important, as each requires different strategies.

 2) Can you give me some examples of the propaganda being specifically generated by the 'enemy' in question and what you think it achieves?

 If you can specify your terms of reference I'll happily jump in.


enemy=islam as defined in koran
enablers=elitist self-loathing media and nit picking na-bobs of negativism
 
Noted your acceptance of my position that islamic use of violence is to reduce our will.
 
You asked for examples, I suppose because discussing everything all at once is too hard.These examples are limited, but the methods and direction of the spin carry over onto eveyr story carried in MSM. The truth suffers.
 
First example: Why isn't media focusing on strategy of islam to use violence toreduce our will to resist? Propoganda is calling them 'activists' or 'youths', or even 'extremists'. They identify themselves as moslems following the instructions in the koran, as taught to them by their parents, community, at school, and at mosque. Call them moslems.
Western media should abhor violence, expose it, and work to end it; but islamic violence is accepted, and the terms adjusted to minimize and excuse it.
Terms of discussion warped by MSM buying into islamic talking points and slick Suadi PR campaign, and large bribes of public and media figures.
 
Second example: Islamic treatment of Women. Western media has championed womens rights for a century or more, except now it's ok that islam features slavery, mutilation, and total domination of women.  Where is the coverage, where is the never-ending outrage?
 
I know controversy sells. I know western media is not islamic media. I am talking about the propoganda from the self-loathing elitist MSM which gladly repeats islamic propoganda and builds on it, a welcome amplifier to undermine western culture and errode our will to resist the butchery, murder, ignorance that we are fighting.
 
What does propoganda acheive in a sustained low-intensity conflict? It decides the outcome as much as any other factor.
 
 
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sofa       3/6/2007 1:10:36 PM

bigfella - How would you defeat our current enemy, who is using PR and violence to reduce our will?
Who would you identify as our enemy?
How would you defeat them?

 
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shek       3/6/2007 2:42:59 PM


enemy=islam as defined in koran

Sofa,

What translations of the Quran and Hadith do you recommend, and what Islamic jurists would you recommend that I read?  Thanks.

Shek
 
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Bigfella2       3/7/2007 4:33:47 AM








bigfella - How would you defeat our current enemy, who is using PR and violence to reduce our will?


 




Sofa,



 Happy to have a grownup discussion about this if you are. Rather than go off on the wrong track, however, I'll get you to define a few terms so that I know precisely what I am talking about:



 1) Are you just talking about Iraq, or is this about the broader struggle against Revolutionary Islam? This is important, as each requires different strategies.



 2) Can you give me some examples of the propaganda being specifically generated by the 'enemy' in question and what you think it achieves?



 If you can specify your terms of reference I'll happily jump in.




enemy=islam as defined in koran

enablers=elitist self-loathing media and nit picking na-bobs of negativism

 

Noted your acceptance of my position that islamic use of violence is to reduce our will.

 



You asked for examples, I suppose because discussing everything all at once is too hard.These examples are limited, but the methods and direction of the spin carry over onto eveyr story carried in MSM. The truth suffers.

 
First example: Why isn't media focusing on strategy of islam to use violence toreduce our will to resist? Propoganda is calling them 'activists' or 'youths', or even 'extremists'. They identify themselves as moslems following the instructions in the koran, as taught to them by their parents, community, at school, and at mosque. Call them moslems.



Western media should abhor violence, expose it, and work to end it; but islamic violence is accepted, and the terms adjusted to minimize and excuse it.

Terms of discussion warped by MSM buying into islamic talking points and slick Suadi PR campaign, and large bribes of public and media figures.

 

Second example: Islamic treatment of Women. Western media has championed womens rights for a century or more, except now it's ok that islam features slavery, mutilation, and total domination of women.  Where is the coverage, where is the never-ending outrage?

 

I know controversy sells. I know western media is not islamic media. I am talking about the propoganda from the self-loathing elitist MSM which gladly repeats islamic propoganda and builds on it, a welcome amplifier to undermine western culture and errode our will to resist the butchery, murder, ignorance that we are fighting.

 

What does propoganda acheive in a sustained low-intensity conflict? It decides the outcome as much as any other factor.

 



 
Sofa,
 
You might have noticed that I included the phrase 'grownup discussion' in my reply. You gave me terms of reference that can best be described as infantile. If the 'enemy' in your eyes is Islam then there no point even attempting a grownup or rational discussion.
 
As for propaganda, you didn't provide me with a single example of propaganda created by an Islamic group or proof of impact. All you did was repeat the tired dittohead old rant against the 'MSM'. Clearly you are simply determined to ignore the string of errors committed by the Bush Administration in favour of blaming the messenger.
 
If you want a genuine grownup debate the define some grownup terms of reference. If you just want to do a bit of howling in the conservative bobblehead echo chamber that sometimes sets up shop on SP then you will no doubt find some company. I'll be sure to wave at you from the real world. 
 
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tigertony    littlefella AKA:Mr Two Faces   3/7/2007 7:45:57 AM
  "If you want a genuine grownup debate the define some grownup terms of reference. If you just want to do a bit of howling in the conservative bobblehead echo chamber that sometimes sets up shop on SP then you will no doubt find some company. I'll be sure to wave at you from the real world."
 
  Hey Mr Little,
 
   You Sir have alot of nerve to insult anyone about being one-sided or having two faces each day!. I notice that your grown-up solution to truth is to cower away like these AQ rats and refuse to confront truth!. And my posts addressed to you are more then proof that you are "Guilty as charged!". Yep go ahead and accuse me of not admiting mistakes by GW?. You,just like Sheky Green are the one's who refuse to admit why GW is in this mess round the world in the 1st place!. Oh and btw littlefella, just what do you actually do in your real world? I would bet you are neither a soldier or have probably even served, yet insult our President who has,even if he was just in the Guard!. And tell me if you are such a master tactician then perhaps you could enlighten us all on how to change Iraq's results and stop all that peaceful Islam round the world?
 
   Now lets discuss lack of proof as to why we lost Vietnam and why we are losing in Iraq for the same reasons? Sorry Mr Two Face "Seems that all sides like South Vietnam,USA,and Australia lost because our enemies ran a better Public relations and propaganda campaign, supported by our media, and the protests in those streets!". Oh and btw, i would suggest since you are an Aussie,and not an American "Why don't you spend all your time ridding yourself of another fellow Australian who supports both GW and Iraq Mr Howard?"
 
 
  Now let's discuss this peaceful religion of Islam,
 
  So littlefella tell me who founded Islam? Yes, and this same man married a 6 year old girl, which btw "Would be illegal in any nation or anyother faith!. So what this say for Islam or the man who founded it?. They are criminals,child molesters,rapists,oppressers of woman,and oppressors of Freedom,and an abomination of GOD,just like David Koresh and we all know what fate our nation gave him!. And i am not being 2 faced  like you, who tries to defend a faith who deserves none!. And my faith btw is in GOD,not a Church ,not a man,and not a man who calls himself a son or prophet of GOD!. And the real problem with all men is that they think GOD would send anyone to kill in his name "When real truth is Christ never killed anyone, least ways in the name of his father!". So littlefella i guess i am only telling one side to this whole story like you are famous for?
 
   Oh and btw,you call yourself Bigfella, well how bout the next time i come to Perth i will look you up and we will see just how big you really are? You Sir are an arrogant jack-ass,which is still just another word for a mule,or donkey if you prefer!. And i am not sorry sys-ops because the above is truth!
 
                                                                Have A Nice Day!!!
 
                                                                      tigertony
                                               
 
                                                            
 
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sofa       3/7/2007 12:05:27 PM
bf - Thank you for your well reasoned response, again.
 
You asked for specific example: Islamic propoganda to excuse islamic treatment of women as ok.
Western media has championed womens rights for a century or more, except now it's ok that islam features slavery, mutilation, and total domination of women.  Where is the coverage, where is the never-ending outrage?
 
You asked for an example, I provided one. Seems you can't handle reasoned discussion.

 


 
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sofa       3/7/2007 12:16:09 PM
 "You are an idiot. The only thing worse than your understanding of history is your grasp of current events. This war was a screw up from day one. The only people to blame are the morons in the Administration who planned & ran it."-bf
 
Al Qaeda talking points, amplified by elitist self-loathing media and cheese eating surrender monkeys, swirled in a pan of bush derangement syndrom, and spewed forth as garbage.
 
You can hear the same thing on Al Jazeera every day.
Making you propoganda example #3: Muppets repeating AQ talking points.
 
 
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swhitebull    Muppets and littlebigfella   3/7/2007 12:57:23 PM

 "You are an idiot. The only thing worse than your understanding of history is your grasp of current events. This war was a screw up from day one. The only people to blame are the morons in the Administration who planned & ran it."-bf

 

Al Qaeda talking points, amplified by elitist self-loathing media and cheese eating surrender monkeys, swirled in a pan of bush derangement syndrom, and spewed forth as garbage.

 

You can hear the same thing on Al Jazeera every day.

Making you propoganda example #3: Muppets repeating AQ talking points.

 


I object strongly to elevating littlefella to the same level of  The Muppets. You increase both his stature - which we now know from his Dick Cheney posting on the Ann Coulter thread of his longing for Big Dick - and imply that he is good enough to be a member of the Muppet Family. I propose instead that he is no better than a sock-puppet - easily fabricated, mouth in motion with nothing coming out, goes limp when not pumped up, and, when not in use, ultimately empty of substance. (See our US threads on Ann Coulter or Jimmy Carter Was a Disaster if you want further evidence of PhD pedants gone wild).
 
swhitebull
 
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sofa       3/7/2007 1:27:56 PM
Muppets include strings pulled by unseen actors.
 
Muppets are distinguished from ventriloquist "dummies", which are typically animated only in the head and face, in that their arms or other features are also mobile and expressive. Muppets are typically made of softer materials. They are also presented as being independent of the puppeteer, who is usually not visible, hidden behind a set or outside of the camera frame.
 
combination sock puppet (for reasons mentioned) and muppet ?
 
 
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shek       3/7/2007 3:50:08 PM
Sofa,

What translations of the Quran and Hadith do you recommend, and what Islamic jurists would you recommend that I read?  Thanks.

Shek
 
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