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Subject: land for promise
sofa    1/16/2007 8:57:59 AM
from lgf: "http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/813817.html" http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/813817.html -------- In a series of secret meetings in Europe between September 2004 and July 2006, Syrians and Israelis formulated understandings for a peace agreement between Israel and Syria. The main points of the understandings are as follows: An agreement of principles will be signed between the two countries, and following the fulfillment of all commitments, a peace agreement will be signed. As part of the agreement on principles, Israel will withdraw from the Golan Heights to the lines of 4 June, 1967. The timetable for the withdrawal remained open: Syria demanded the pullout be carried out over a five-year period, while Israel asked for the withdrawal to be spread out over 15 years. At the buffer zone, along Lake Kinneret, a park will be set up for joint use by Israelis and Syrians. The park will cover a significant portion of the Golan Heights. Israelis will be free to access the park and their presence will not be dependent on Syrian approval. Israel will retain control over the use of the waters of the Jordan River and Lake Kinneret. According to the terms, Syria will also agree to end its support for Hezbollah and Hamas and will distance itself from Iran. The document is described as a "non-paper," a document of understandings that is not signed and lacks legal standing - its nature is political. It was prepared in August 2005 and has been updated during a number of meetings in Europe. The meetings were carried out with the knowledge of senior officials in the government of former prime minister Ariel Sharon. The last meeting took place during last summer's war in Lebanon.
 
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Ezekiel    peace for peace   1/16/2007 12:45:34 PM
The proposition of exchanging land for peace is unheard of in the annals of history. Whenever has a nation that won terrirtory in a defensive war surrendered it to the very nations that attacked it? And will giving up land lead to peace? Looking at the situation, never in the history of Israeli-Arab relations have concessions led to an attitude of conciliation and peace. Instead, the initial concessions have communicated feelings of weakness & insecurity that have been exploited by the Arabsand have encouraged them to make further and more excessive demands. Every retreat before pressure has called forth greater pressure to retreat even further.

A pattern has been established: The Arabs make vociferous demands. Afraid of "cutting of our dialogue," Israel makes concessions, agreeing to at least several of their claims. And shortly afterwords, they demand more, explaining to Israel- & the world at large that these new claims are logical corollaries to the claims that Israel have already accepted. And their is a certain l-ogic to this argument. After all, once Israel has accepted the basic premise that it is proper to compromise its security to placate the Arabs, it is hard to draw the red lines. If danger to life is no longer a reason to say "No;no more," what is?

It is high time Israel stopped merely reacting, and establishing Israeli policies in response to Arab claims. Instead, Israel must be concerned with what their own priorities are. Israel has to know that there are certain things that ares imply not for sale. And this restriction is not prompted by sentimental reasons; it is simply that a nation does not takes risks when lives are at stake.

Not only is the land for
The proposition of exchanging land for peace is unheard of in the annals of history. Whenever has a nation that won terrirtory in a defensive war surrendered it to the very nations that attacked it? And will giving up land lead to peace? Looking at the situation, never in the history of Israeli-Arab relations have concessions led to an attitude of conciliation and peace. Instead, the initial concessions have communicated feelings of weakness & insecurity that have been exploited by the Arabsand have encouraged them to make further and more excessive demands. Every retreat before pressure has called forth greater pressure to retreat even further.

A pattern has been established: The Arabs make vociferous demands. Afraid of "cutting of our dialogue," Israel makes concessions, agreeing to at least several of their claims. And shortly afterwords, they demand more, explaining to Israel- & the world at large that these new claims are logical corollaries to the claims that Israel have already accepted. And their is a certain l-ogic to this argument. After all, once Israel has accepted the basic premise that it is proper to compromise its security to placate the Arabs, it is hard to draw the red lines. If danger to life is no longer a reason to say "No;no more," what is?

It is high time Israel stopped merely reacting, and establishing Israeli policies in response to Arab claims. Instead, Israel must be concerned with what their own priorities are. Israel has to know that there are certain things that ares imply not for sale. And this restriction is not prompted by sentimental reasons; it is simply that a nation does not takes risks when lives are at stake.
This was in another discussion but it seems to be a
The proposition of exchanging land for peace is unheard of in the annals of history. Whenever has a nation that won terrirtory in a defensive war surrendered it to the very nations that attacked it? And will giving up land lead to peace? Looking at the situation, never in the history of Israeli-Arab relations have concessions led to an attitude of conciliation and peace. Instead, the initial concessions have communicated feelings of weakness & insecurity that have been exploited by the Arabsand have encouraged them to make further and more excessive demands. Every retreat before pressure has called forth greater pressure to retreat even further.

A pattern has been established: The Arabs make vociferous demands. Afraid of "cutting of our dialogue," Israel makes concessions, agreeing to at least several of their claims. And shortly afterwords, they demand more, explaining to Israel- & the world at large that these new claims are logical corollaries to the claims that Israel have already accepted. And their is a certain l-ogic to this argument. After all, once Israel has accepted the basic premise that it is proper to compromise its security to placate the Arabs, it is hard to draw the red lines. If danger to life is no longer a reason to say "No;no more," what is?
 
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Ezekiel       1/16/2007 1:25:23 PM
sorry about my post mess up ...... the article sofa cited was debunked 2 hrs after it was reported.... selective posting is disingenuous at best, unethical at worst. 
 
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sofa       1/17/2007 7:04:47 PM
Glad it has been debunked.
 
 
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Yochanan       2/18/2007 10:50:02 AM
I wouldn't say it is "debunked at all".  Olmert never lies, and for what purpose?
The Syrian government is tough, strong, and extremely dangerous, and people still have failed to understand the depth of the Syrian - Russian relationship.  They have learned over time, that they do not need to attack Israel or western interests outright they can just support projects that undermine them throughout the ME.  LEBANON is a prime example of this.
 
I would not assume anything about the article as debunked.
 
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Ezekiel    Syrian power   2/19/2007 5:16:35 AM
Syria is so strong that when Sharon sent Israeli F-16's buzzing Assad's summer palace while he was snoozing.....  the response was overwhelming.... nothing! Yeah really strong. They have strategic missiles and that is about it. They arm Hezbollah and can foment unrest in Lebanon its proxy country.....but that is pretty much their cards they can play. Aside from that it is a dictatorial repressive and barbaric country that is still attempting to crawl its way out of the dark manages. though it must be remarked that these attempts have remained unsuccessful.
 
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Ezekiel    Munich   5/1/2008 3:11:25 AM
Doesn't anyone remember munich in '39.... a disgraceful diplomatic settlement that gave chekoslovakia and all its military factories and strategic defended border to the Nazi's which consolidated hitlers hold domestically and in Europe. He said that was his last territorial ambition...and once he had gulped chokoslovakia....it turned out that it wasn't enough...the same for for the islamo-facists. Once the strategic Golan is in their hands, it will ensure war!!!
 
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FJV       5/2/2008 8:23:41 AM
I would wait until there is some real sincerity until I start making any peace deals.



 
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Herald12345    Maybe after regime change.   5/2/2008 9:24:23 AM

I would wait until there is some real sincerity until I start making any peace deals.




Syrian government history.

You do not negotiate with terrorists. You KILL them.

 
Herald
 
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FJV    Unfortunately in the real world   5/3/2008 9:41:39 AM
I've read the books and time and again the mantra is Don't negotiate with terrorists, don't give them any political recognition, but in reality terrorists are always negotiated with. I may not agree with it, I may not like it, I may think that it is damaging, but that still isn't going to stop this. (Instances are Israel with Fatah, Clinton/the US not arresting Bin Laden when they had the chance)

Now why should I consider any strategy which require actions that will just not happen in the real world. In my opinion any effective counter terror strategy will have to take into consideration that negotiations with terrorists will happen, how unfortunate that might be.

It's the same with hostage situations every book says Do not give in to the hostage taker's demand, yet that is exactly what happens all the time. So if you wanna do something about kidnappers, then you have to face up to this unpalatable thruth.

It just ain't gonna happen.



 
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jastayme3       5/3/2008 1:00:58 PM
 As far as when has a nation that conquered land after first being attacked by the vanquished voluntarily given
up land, there is Okinawa.
But Israel is simply incapable of digesting land. It brings long and degrading pacification operations that are harmful
to the morale of the IDF. Moreover it brings Israel the choice of makining itself a ruling class or enfranchising those hostile to
it.
On the other hand, "peace" is to chimerical a concession to demand. And experience tells that it is a lie. There could however be some more concrete form of assurance, though I can't think of it. I suppose you can ransom it, but that is to realistic to be fashionable, money seems to cheap for the purpose, and it is hard to think of another ransom. A promise that they can have the land back when they are suitably disarmed might work but it sounds implausible. In fact any ransom sounds implausible as it would be bad for face.
I suppose you can simply announce that if your concessions are not met, you will simply appoint whatever local fellow you please as ruler and then skedaddle.
Of course you have already left Palestinian territory so all that is theoretical right now. Except for the Golan Heights. Those are a strategic resource, a barrier to a defender and a sally port to an attacker. And they are not very thickly populated so there is no point in saying it is an occupation. The only one offended is the Syrian government. And at least as governments go, as you imply it is not unjust to claim Vae Victas Bellas Princeps. Which is the best I can come up with for a fancy Latin sounding version of, "if you pick a fight you deserve what you get."

 
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