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Subject: IDF military independence
Ezekiel    2/13/2007 12:47:38 PM
As anti-semitism grows and arab propoganda demonizing Israel spreads throughout the west, how precisely and through what platform developments should Israel's military industry and thus its military be able to attain a necessary independence to be able to fight its enemies without huge military dependency influences.
 
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Herc the Merc    Ezekiel-traditional pessimism showing   2/13/2007 12:51:26 PM
There is always someone willing to sell, and Israel is no paraih-temporary glitches aside.
 
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jastayme3       2/13/2007 5:44:17 PM
I doubt there are many merchants of death whose anti-semitism exceeds their avarice. Besides you won in '48 using cartridges made of lipstick tubes.
It is as well to have a decent arms industry at home though.

 
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Ezekiel       2/14/2007 3:49:50 AM

 Besides you won in '48 using cartridges made of lipstick
tubes.

It is as well to have a decent arms industry at home though.


'you' used as if I am Israeli, I must say that I do not have the honor of such a distinction.

But my question is not whether you agree if Israel will have to become militarily independent, my question was HOW they would be able to successfully transform itself to a more independent footing???? Through what developments and platforms????
 
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jastayme3       2/14/2007 5:39:24 AM



 Besides you won in '48 using cartridges made of lipstick

tubes.


It is as well to have a decent arms industry at home though.




'you' used as if I am Israeli, I must say that I do not have the honor of such a distinction.

But my question is not whether you agree if Israel will have to become militarily independent, my question was HOW they would be able to successfully transform itself to a more independent footing???? Through what developments and platforms????
Really? Funny I always had the impression you were Israeli. My mistake.

One must take into account the materials available. Israel has already come well beyond the lipstick tube phase.
If there is real fear of being cut off you would have to go with simple and dependable. Not to simple obviously. But not so complicated that it can't be built from what you have.
In point of fact ammunition stocks are more important to Israel then platforms. New developments should not be overdone. No one wants to be left out of the running of course but they can become a fetish and training and maintenance cannot be harmed.  A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
What Israel has is fairly good. It could use some more helicopters possibly. I harp on a bit about this but helicoptors are a necessity for small wars.


 
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Ezekiel       2/14/2007 6:54:14 AM
don't worry about it, though I must say I have a deep and profound respect for these tenacious people that is a mixture of admiration and curiosity. They've been through so much and yet they seem to always rise above it all to the point of it being short of miraculous.

Okay so you say helicopters.... what does it take to indigenously produce a helicopter platform??????

The other platform that I was thinking that Israel would need to produce to ensure its shipping lanes and be able to maximize force projection would be subs???? 
 
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jastayme3       2/14/2007 1:15:42 PM

don't worry about it, though I must say I have a deep and profound respect for these tenacious people that is a mixture of admiration and curiosity. They've been through so much and yet they seem to always rise above it all to the point of it being short of miraculous.

Okay so you say helicopters.... what does it take to indigenously produce a helicopter platform??????

The other platform that I was thinking that Israel would need to produce to ensure its shipping lanes and be able to maximize force projection would be subs???? 
A reasonably good transport helo wouldn't be to hard to turn out I should think. Attack would require more sophisticated. Of course Israel does have high tech capibility but you are basically positing that it be capable of doing it with no imports.
Israel already does have a pretty good domestic arms industry by the way with it's small arms and tanks.

The naval game is just to expensive for a regional power to compete much. In any case subs are a sea denial, not a sea protection weapon. To actually assure it's sea lanes is probably beyond Israel.
None of Israel's potential foes have much in the way of a naval capacity. The closest Israel has ever gone to facing a first class naval power has been gunrunning and refugee smuggling past the Royal Navy.

 
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Herc the Merc    Practically speaking arm sales can finance evrything   2/14/2007 2:09:48 PM
Selling arms overseas is the only way Israel can generate revenue to sustain its own industry. India is one example of a customer it needs to develop. I think it is $1.5 billion /year in sales now. Thats a lot of money for Israel arms industry and R&D experience. If Israel loses India as a customer US or other aid is the only hope.
 
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Ezekiel       2/15/2007 7:47:39 AM
I've heard from one person  of a weapons platform (helicopters) that would enhance Israeli military independence.... this is in my opinion, is a very good idea. But what else, what other platforms should Israel start producing?????

I have two other platforms that I think is necessary for a minimum independence......Submarines, fighter jets! I thimk Israel has the capabilities technologically to do this.... as for the financing it is a different story. I think that Israel with it's current economy could if necessary carry a $20 billion defense budget it currently without US help is 9 billion. If Israel was to continue to absorb immigrants and start a policy of a free market economy, which it started but did not finish, it is possible to raise this budget by a further 10 billion. These aren't just numbers but comparative analysis of past defense expenditures as % of GDp, as well as current economic volumes, and growth rates. Thus submarine and fighter jet programs aren't out of the question.
 
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jastayme3       2/16/2007 3:48:33 PM

I've heard from one person  of a weapons platform (helicopters) that would enhance Israeli military independence.... this is in my opinion, is a very good idea. But what else, what other platforms should Israel start producing?????

I have two other platforms that I think is necessary for a minimum independence......Submarines, fighter jets! I thimk Israel has the capabilities technologically to do this.... as for the financing it is a different story. I think that Israel with it's current economy could if necessary carry a $20 billion defense budget it currently without US help is 9 billion. If Israel was to continue to absorb immigrants and start a policy of a free market economy, which it started but did not finish, it is possible to raise this budget by a further 10 billion. These aren't just numbers but comparative analysis of past defense expenditures as % of GDp, as well as current economic volumes, and growth rates. Thus submarine and fighter jet programs aren't out of the question.
I do think Israel could make it's own fighters. Subs are more of a problem-they are kind of a big basket for all the eggs. Countries of Israel's size seldom have more then half a dozen. Subs need to be aggressive or they don't function and having only a small amount discourages risk-tolerance.

 
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Ezekiel       2/20/2007 4:55:52 AM
Subs if put in the right setting of homeland defense, does many things as a military platform..... the need for Israel to have to protect its sea routes for export and import, and from blockade is minumum if it seeks true military independence. The fact ptian navy is twice as big as Israel's is also a factor. Submarines are a substantial investment, but well worth it. Israel with submarine also gives it an added deterrence that it currently only enjoys in air wars. Submarines are necessary for any country that seeks military dominance there is no getting around it. THey give a huge tactical advantage and strategic head start if encorporated with an entire war machine, it creates power projection, it is stealthy, and most of all is a great deterrent. For Israel to fight effectively without the support of one major player, and rather take from a pool of smaller players in military import, it is clear it needs its own helicopter/fighter jets/submarines..... what else should be considered??? and what is considered adequate/necessary??? Why/why not???
 
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