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Subject: Israeli helicopter
Ezekiel    3/15/2007 11:00:44 AM
What innovations would israeli arms industry generate if required to produce a helicopter? How could effect Israeli independence and operational capabilities???
 
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Softwar       3/15/2007 11:17:08 AM
Attack
Assualt
Troop carrier
Heavy Lift
 
Take a pick - which class?
 
The attack market is pretty well covered, assualt and troop carrier have a number of entries.  Heavy lift is open - CH-53 is current Israeli mainstay.
 
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Ezekiel       3/15/2007 1:49:02 PM
Attack and assault crafts
 
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swhitebull       3/15/2007 2:01:33 PM
Bad use of resources, that could go into other projects.
 
 Israel should continue to do what it does best - electronic and avionic design and development, with much better and bigger bang for the shekel. Israel is among the top 4 or 5 in those fields, while original airframe design is NOT one of their forte's. See LAVI.  However, the modifications they made that made the South African Cheetah, and to their own F15I and F16Is is top notch work, as well as with their UAVs, missles, the Arrow systemetc.  One can even make the case that the money and resources spent on the Merkava was better spent elsewhere, but I understand the realities of access to tanks in times of cutoffs is crucial. OTOH, Israel has a strong fleet of helos and fixed winged airframes, with top notch locally modified avionics,
 
 
If you are into sci-fi,  think Isaac Asimov's Foundation - you are isolated, with meager physical resources, surrounded by enemies, but have one of the most advanced and educated societies in the world, with topnotch scientists, programmers, etc.  The theory of comparative advantage says that you produce that which you are most efficient at producing, and obtain what you arent efficient at producing elsewhere.  The Foundation concentrated on hightech, low-cost but highly desired (and priced) exportables, pyramiding their technological advantage into a decisive edge over their adversaries. Same situations with the Israelis.
 
Concentrate on what they produce best - BRAINPOWER, produce inefficiently ONLY what is vital to national security (Merkava), and market your brainpower products to the world. Stay away from helos,  just improve their avionics.
 
 
swhitebull 
 
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jastayme3       3/16/2007 12:53:35 AM


Helicoptors are needed for transport though. That kind wouldn't need to be "gee whiss-ey". They just need to carry stuff about the battlefield and would be a very valueable asset.

 
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Ezekiel       3/16/2007 3:20:32 AM

Bad use of resources, that could go into other projects.

 

 Israel should continue to do what it does best - electronic and avionic design and development, with much better and bigger bang for the shekel. Israel is among the top 4 or 5 in those fields, while original airframe design is NOT one of their forte's. See LAVI.  However, the modifications they made that made the South African Cheetah, and to their own F15I and F16Is is top notch work, as well as with their UAVs, missles, the Arrow systemetc.  One can even make the case that the money and resources spent on the Merkava was better spent elsewhere, but I understand the realities of access to tanks in times of cutoffs is crucial. OTOH, Israel has a strong fleet of helos and fixed winged airframes, with top notch locally modified avionics,

 

 

If you are into sci-fi,  think Isaac Asimov's Foundation - you are isolated, with meager physical resources, surrounded by enemies, but have one of the most advanced and educated societies in the world, with topnotch scientists, programmers, etc.  The theory of comparative advantage says that you produce that which you are most efficient at producing, and obtain what you arent efficient at producing elsewhere.  The Foundation concentrated on hightech, low-cost but highly desired (and priced) exportables, pyramiding their technological advantage into a decisive edge over their adversaries. Same situations with the Israelis.

 

Concentrate on what they produce best - BRAINPOWER, produce inefficiently ONLY what is vital to national security (Merkava), and market your brainpower products to the world. Stay away from helos,  just improve their avionics.

 

 

swhitebull 

you make a good point..... but i will say three things. First) israel would need to produce alot more uav's with alot more striking force to replace the attack helo.
second) Israel still needs a troo
p transporting helo
Third) I know I only said two but the third one is IDF inde
pendency..... with an indeginous tank & helo program it raises the level of Israel's self sufficiency at least from a tactical standpoint.
I will definitely check out 'the foundation'...... I have his short stories they are great. Though not a huge sci fi fan, but occassionally i
pick them up.
 
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Shirrush    Izzie VTOL   3/16/2007 9:57:34 AM
"Bad use of resources, that could go into other projects."
What do you mean Swhitebull? Wherever there's a market, anyone can have a go at suggesting and developing a product, even if he lives in a small, resources-poor country providing there's a conducive climate for investors, which there certainly is.
The new Israeli "helicopter" exists, and will fly.
When I think of how many lives MDA will be able to save with just a couple of these in Israel, I get a boner!

Such a flying machine will also be quite useful to the security forces' first responders in CT situations, and it could also quickly and stealthily resupply isolated forces on the battlefield, something that the IDF/AF helicopters balked at doing during the last Lebanon episode because of the ground fire risks incurred. An unmanned version of these "saucers" is therefore in the works.
Who said that some good cannot come from wasting our lives in the Tel Aviv metropolitan area's endless traffic jams, uh?
 



 
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jastayme3       3/16/2007 12:29:47 PM

 For the matter of that they already have troop transport heliocopters(if I remember they were used in the retaking of Mt. Hermon among other places) of course. But the airmoble capability could be increased a bit.

 
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Ezekiel       3/18/2007 3:39:49 PM
shirrush makes some good points.

Israel would ado
pt much of the innovations that were developed in the U.S.'s canceled comanche program, plus integration of many safety features already developed in israel for helicopters.

Israeli helico
pter would also be a powerful tool as is the UAV in assymetric warfare and first response border violations such as HAMAS and Hezbollah have initiated.

The troo
p/equipment transport mobility advantage is also an extremely attractive feature, reinforced by the logistical failures experienced during Lebenon crisis.
 
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Ezekiel       4/22/2007 12:54:56 AM
what stealthy features could be incorporated into a new helo platform in Israel in order to evade anti air rockets that Iran is now supplying to hezbollah and hamas?
 
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SGTObvious       4/23/2007 2:28:48 PM

"Bad use of resources, that could go into other projects."
What do you mean Swhitebull?

What he probably means is that a helicopter, or any major aircraft, incurs a lot of design costs.  These must be spread across the unit costs of the individual aircraft.    Israel's helicopter would be competing against US, European, and Russian designs, where in almost every case the number of individual sales are propped up greatly by the producing nations own requirements.  The US and Russian helo markets are the world's largest and neither would make a serious move to foreign suppliers, therefore, any competitor is starting out from a disadvantaged position.  
Israel would be better off, then, designing and selling some wonderful gadget than can be attached to an Apache, rather than a new Apache.  Which is what they do.
 
SGTObvious
 
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