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Subject: Israel knew occupation was illegal
cosmonaut    5/26/2007 5:58:47 PM
Although not surprising, this explosive new finding has failed to gain any coverage in the mainstream news media. Considering the monumental significance of the information, I am highly suspicious of the blackout being applied and enforced against this emerging story. This article, published by Australia's Herald Sun, is one of only two or three. Why is this not considered newsworthy, I wonder? ------------------------------------------ http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21797171-5005961,00.html Memo: Israel knew occupation was illegal From correspondents in London May 26, 2007 12:19pm A SECRET memo proves that the Israeli government knew that its occupation of Palestinian land was illegal after it won the Six Day War in 1967, a British newspaper reported today. Theodor Meron, who wrote the memo as the Israeli foreign ministry's legal adviser at the time, said "I believe I would have given the same opinion today,'' according to The Independent newspaper. With Israel now celebrating the 40th anniversary of the war, 76-year-old Mr Meron, who went on to become a leading international jurist, challenges Israel's long-held argument that settlements do not violate international law. The Independent said it obtained a copy of his legal opinion, which was marked "Top Secret'' and "Extremely Urgent". Quoting its author, the newspaper said the memo concluded "that civilian settlement in the administered territories contravenes the explicit provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention". Mr Meron also told the newspaper that then foreign minister Abba Eban was "sympathetic'' to his view that civilian settlement would go against the Hague and Geneva conventions governing the conduct of occupying powers. But the Labour government at the time progressively approved the settlements in the captured West Bank despite the secret legal opinion which had been passed on to then prime minister Levi Eshkol. Such actions paved the way for at least 240,000 Israelis to settle in the the West Bank. Mr Meron, who served as president of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia until 2005, was also quoted as telling The Independent that the settlements have proven to be a real stumbling block. "It's obvious to me that the fact that settlements were established and the pace of the establishment of the settlements made peacemaking much more difficult,'' he was quoted as saying. In the Six Day War in June 1967, Israel captured the Sinai peninsula from Egypt, the Golan Heights from Syria and the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan.
 
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swhitebull    Illegal vs Legal Occupation for Dummies 101   5/26/2007 6:14:13 PM
Apparently you have a thorough knowledge of international law, especially when it comes to the definitions of "legal" vs. "illegal" occupation. Do you know the difference? Apparently, the writer of your ever-so-hot potato article has NO CLUE.
 
Well, for your greater education, we refer you to this long thread on SP, where someone who was completely ignorant of international law was taken apart. Hope you take the time to read all of this:
 
http://strategypage.com/militaryforums/36-14679.aspx
 
 
Further pieces on occupation, by 1) Dore Gold:
 

FROM "OCCUPIED TERRITORIES" TO "DISPUTED TERRITORIES"

Dore Gold


"Occupation" as an Accusation / The Terminology of Other Territorial Disputes / No Previously-Recognized Sovereignty in the Territories / Aggression vs. Self-Defense / Israeli Rights in the Territories / After Oslo, Can the Territories be Characterized as "Occupied"?


"Occupation" as an Accusation

 

At the heart of the Palestinian diplomatic struggle against Israel is the repeated assertion that the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza Strip are resisting "occupation." Speaking recently on CNN's Larry King Weekend, Hanan Ashrawi hoped that the U.S. war on terrorism would lead to new diplomatic initiatives to address its root "causes." She then went on to specifically identify "the occupation which has gone on too long" as an example of one of terrorism's sources.1 In other words, according to Ashrawi, the violence of the intifada emanates from the "occupation."

Mustafa Barghouti, president of the Palestinian Medical Relief Committees and a frequent guest on CNN as well, similarly asserted that: "the root of the problem is Israeli occupation."2 Writing in the Washington Post on January 16, 2002, Marwan Barghouti, head of Arafat's Fatah PLO faction in the West Bank, continued this theme with an article entitled: "Want Security? End the Occupation." This has become the most ubiquitous line of argument today among Palestinian spokesmen, who have to contend with the growing international consensus against terrorism as a political instrument.

This language and logic have also penetrated the diplomatic struggles in the United Nations. During August 2001, a Palestinian draft resolution at the UN Security Council repeated the commonly used Palestinian reference to the West Bank and Gaza Strip as "occupied Palestinian territories." References to Israel's "foreign occupation" also appeared in the Durban Draft Declaration of the UN World Conference Against Racism. The Libyan ambassador to the United Nations, in the name of the Arab Group Caucus, reiterated on October 1, 2001, what Palestinian spokesmen had been saying on network television: "The Arab Group stresses its determination to confront any attempt to classify resistance to occupation as an act of terrorism."3

Three clear purposes seem to be served by the repeated references to "occupation" or "occupied Palestinian territories." First, Palestinian spokesmen hope to create a political context to explain and even justify the Palestinians' adoption of violence and terrorism during the current intifada. Second, the Palestinian demand of Israel to "end the occupation" does not leave any room for territorial compromise in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as suggested by the original language of UN Security Council Resolution 242 (see below).

Third, the use of "occupied Palestinian territories" denies any Israeli claim to the land: had the more neutral language of "disputed territories" been used, then the Palestinians and Israel would be on an even playing field with equal rights. Additionally, by presenting Israel as a "foreign occupier," advocates of the Palestinian cause can delegitimize the Jewish historical attachment to Israel. This has become a focal point of Palestinian diplomatic efforts since the failed 2000 Camp David Summit, but particularly since the UN Durban Conference in 2001. Indeed, at Durban, the delegitimization campaign against Israel exploited the language of "occupation" in order to invoke the memories of Nazi-occupied Europe during the Second World War and link them to Israeli practices in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.4


The Terminology of Other Territorial Disputes

The politically-loaded term "occupied territories" or "occupation" seems to apply only to Israel and is hardly ever used when other territorial disputes are

 
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swhitebull    We Add Some More Info On What the Geneva Protocols REALLY Say   5/26/2007 6:47:32 PM
From a discussion on another BBS, several years ago, on the Protocols:
 
 

Most people have no concept of International Law, but can only spout back what they hear or read, without critical thinking about what is actually being said. I noticed that the poster known as Catsy didn't or COULD NOT refute you after you posted my article on UN Security Council Resolutions, since it's pretty clear once one actually does the research how and why UN Resolutions are formulated, it deflates all these bogus charges. A little knowledge goes a long way.

Good job on pointing this out.

However, I am REALLY miffed in regards to your failure to address the usual blatantly biased charges that Israel is in violation of Article 4 of the Geneva Protocols, usually in terms of how the IDF goes into terrorist areas populated areas to roust them out, and civilians are hurt.

The relevent point of this is the following, which I will post in its entirety. regardig why the IDF is TOTALLY protected from such accusations of war crimes. Note that given the political atmosphere in the world, you can bet your bottom dollar that if there WAS a legal way to charge any and all IDF soldiers with war crimes, it would have happened already. Given the fact that there IS no legal basis, the looney left defenders of PALI terrorism can only make POLITICAL accusations of War Crimes, and that amounts to about as much moral authority as a resolution (non-binding, of course) coming from the UN General Assembly:

What the Geneva Protocols Really Say
by Scott Schneider
November 28, 2003

http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/20031128.asp

There have been many accusations that Israel has committed war crimes and massacres in fighting the Palestinians, up to and including charges of ethnic cleansing and genocide. But these accusations do not hold up according to the Geneva Protocols, even with regard to the operations in Jenin, and the targeted killings.

The "Geneva Protocol" in question is the "Fourth Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War." This lays down the "law" for situations where an army finds itself fighting non-conventional forces that themselves operate from within civilian areas: The Fourth Geneva Convention goes into great and elaborate detail about how to assign fault when military activities take place in civilian areas. Those who are actually fighting the war are not considered "protected persons." Only civilians are granted the status of "protected persons" whose rights cannot be violated with impunity.

The Fourth Geneva Convention convicts Hamas, the Jenin terrorists, Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad, and Fatah, and all of the other terrorist groups that hide among civilian populations, in one sentence: This sentence makes up the entirety of Part 3, Article 1, Section 28.

It reads: "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations."

This sentence appears in the Fourth Geneva Convention precisely to deal with situations like the ones the Israelis faced.

Here's how: Israel is at war with Hamas and Palestinian militant organizations wreaking terrorist havoc. Hamas and al-Aqksa, et al are at war with Israel. But instead of separating themselves from the general population in military camps and wearing uniforms, as required by international law, Hamas members and other Palestinian terrorists try to use civilians - the "protected persons" mentioned in 3:1:28 - as living camouflage. To prevent such a thing from happening, international law explicitly gives Israel the right to conduct military operations against military targets under these circumstances.

Again, let's check out that 3:1:28 sentence: "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations." There were plenty of "protected persons" in Jenin (and applicable to other areas). The Palestinian terrorists wanted it that way: they choose to live in their camps with their families and hundreds of others around them so that they would serve as human shields, knowing that the Israeli army is reluctant to attack those areas like the Russians did in Grozny.

And because the terrorists do set up in civilian areas, they are wholly responsible for what happens to their "protected persons" - that is, the civilian population where they hide out.

That's what the very next sentence of the Fourth Geneva Convention says: "the party to the conflict in whose hand protected persons may be, is responsible for the treatment accorded to them by its agents."

Let's translate: The "party to the conflict" here is Hamas, Islamic Jihad, al-Aqska, etc. Because they choose to live in and fight from a civilian setting, the "protected

 
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swhitebull    The Makkabee Approach to Discussion   5/26/2007 6:51:12 PM
Wherein we give the History of the Jewish and Arab entry into the Holy Land, stripped of Arab propaganda:  
 
 
 
 
swhitebull
 
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Yimmy       5/26/2007 6:56:23 PM
Of course Israeli actions in the past have had many illegeal occurances..... Hell, the land grabs straight after the UN partition were hardly legal!
 
What does it matter now?
 
 
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swhitebull       5/26/2007 7:00:04 PM

Of course Israeli actions in the past have had many illegeal occurances..... Hell, the land grabs straight after the UN partition were hardly legal!
 
 
As were the calls for genocide on the parts of the Arabs - and their invasions. Add in the illegal land grabs and occupation of Gaza and the West Bank by the Egyptians and the Jordanians in violation of the UN resolutions (that the Jews accepted) with nary a dissent from anyone else, let alone the Arabs, and you have the basis of a discussion. Spoils of wars and all that.

 

What does it matter now?
 
 
It matters only in the sense that the Arabs can't let it go, and dream of a mandate Judenrein. They still show off their little rusty keys to homes that were long ago abandoned - for whatever reason - to generate sympathy. Root causes that breed hatred -  see the Mickey Mouse thread for the answer.

 


swhitebull
 
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mithradates       5/26/2007 7:30:33 PM




Of course Israeli actions in the past have had many illegeal occurances..... Hell, the land grabs straight after the UN partition were hardly legal!

 

 

As were the calls for genocide on the parts of the Arabs - and their invasions. Add in the illegal land grabs and occupation of Gaza and the West Bank by the Egyptians and the Jordanians in violation of the UN resolutions (that the Jews accepted) with nary a dissent from anyone else, let alone the Arabs, and you have the basis of a discussion. Spoils of wars and all that.



 



What does it matter now?

 

 

It matters only in the sense that the Arabs can't let it go, and dream of a mandate Judenrein. They still show off their little rusty keys to homes that were long ago abandoned - for whatever reason - to generate sympathy. Root causes that breed hatred -  see the Mickey Mouse thread for the answer.



 




swhitebull


International law in that area is demonstrated to be worth less than the paper it's written on.

 
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Ezekiel    s-bull to the rescue   5/27/2007 12:11:06 PM
Thank you swhitebull U saved me the trouble in having to once again counter the prevalent Arab anti-israel deligitimizing propoganda campaign. The attempt to defame Israel based on revised history and skewed definitions is so common it almost makes you want to throw in the towel. BUT I say "almost", the big lie once infused within a dialectic becomes so time consuming in countering that we begin to lose sight of the real conversations and arguments that are enriching and advancing to us all. Instead we tread  water and often enough retreat, when the pop opinions and general ignorance  overtakes truth and intellectual integrity.
 
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Shirrush       5/27/2007 12:47:15 PM
I don't know why you guys bother answering this garbage.
Such threads should be ignored.
Thanx anyway for your effort.

 
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swhitebull       5/27/2007 1:31:28 PM

I don't know why you guys bother answering this garbage.
Such threads should be ignored.
Thanx anyway for your effort.


because if you dont raise your voice to counter this garbage, perception and disinformation becomes reality. Hwo do you deal with cockroaches?   Expose them to the light of day and watch them scurry back under their dark, slimy rocks.
 
 
swhitebull
 
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Yimmy       5/27/2007 2:03:42 PM
This is not revisionist, nor is it disinformation.  It is the truth, it happened, and Israel was in the wrong.
 
The Palestinians have also done many things which were wrong, and which also were illegal as by international law.  Everybody knows this.
 
But trying to pretend your side is Holier than thou takes the piss.
 
 
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