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Subject: Pollard
VelocityVector    6/22/2007 8:06:38 PM
I note with interest the unrelenting drive on the part of Israel to compel the release of Pollard, Traitor. Why, excepting "humanitarian" justification which I don't believe for a second? v^2
 
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Shirrush       6/23/2007 2:29:27 AM
He has done enough time for what he did. Release him.
 
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Ezekiel       6/23/2007 1:54:38 PM
An obvios double standard....He has served more then russian agents caught in the U.S. and by far the harshest sentence for an agent that was from an allied country. The U.S. now feel that pollard is a bargaining chip vis a vis the peace process. Israel is not white in all this and has done much to be a detriment to his release. Basically though enough is enough as Shirrush simply states!
 
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jastayme3       6/23/2007 3:43:04 PM
There is "to encourage the others". A lot of Americans who would never spy for the Russians would do so for the Israelis. Which is all very well except that the Russians often use "false flags". Then there is the need to overstrain against the perceived favorite to convince people that the law is impersonal. I suppose from the terms of abstract justice there are mitigating circumstances. However he did spy for a foreign power and even "worse" he got caught.
 
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VelocityVector       6/23/2007 10:12:39 PM

Israel forwarded Pollard's information to the Soviet Union and jeopardized US lives.  Pollard himself solicited the data to third parties to include Pakistan and it very well may have been relayed to enemies of Israel.  Why the fuss over such a spy?  Perhaps your unstated positions encompass that Ames, Hanssen and their ilk deserve harsher treatment than they received given Pollard, in which case I would agree with you, but regardless Pollard deserves natural death in a prison isolation unit.

v^2

 
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jastayme3       6/23/2007 11:05:59 PM

Israel forwarded Pollard's information to the Soviet Union
and jeopardized US lives. Pollard himself
solicited the data to third parties to include Pakistan and it very well may
have been relayed to enemies of Israel. Why
the fuss over such a spy? Perhaps your unstated
positions encompass that Ames, Hanssen and their ilk deserve harsher treatment
than they received given Pollard, in which case I would agree with you, but
regardless Pollard deserves natural death in a prison isolation unit.


v^2



Essentially. By "mitigating" I meant simply that as far as I know he didn't mean it out of greed or malice toward the Repuplic but out of mistaken tribal loyalty. He obviously deserves what he got but I am not inclined to make heavy weather over it. Yes I know that is the old "divided loyalty" cliche but the fact is that everyone who has sympathies outside the country has divided loyalty. Which is another reason the state cannot tolerate such things but for individuals it is sort of a "their but for the grace of God". Would we still think of the Eagle Squadron or the Lafayette Escaddrelle as heros if they hadn't proved to be to the advantage of America's interest? Which in the second case at least could not have been predicted. Arguegably he is also guilty of perjury because he "pledged alleigance to the flag" in third grade like every other American. But very few think of that aspect. As for the Israelis giving information to the Russians, they certainly didn't tell Pollard about it. As a side note, they tell us stuff they get from the Russians too and it is likly enough that we come off better. Intelligence trading is an international institution. And that is what I mean by "mitigating circumstance". I meant he was not doing it for avarice or lust like Ames and he was not deliberatly trying to hurt America like Lindh. He has to be punished-just as a member of an opposing army must be killed. But there is no reason to resent him.
 
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VelocityVector    jay*   6/23/2007 11:32:27 PM

My comments were not specifically directed towards you.  Despite having not a drop of Jewish blood between our two families my significant other and I donate to JUF and refugee eyecare project.  It's not malice on my part, I simply do not understand why Pollard has become such a touchstone.  As I believe you pointed out, Pollard was snared and he admitted.  He also violated his plea deal by appealing for mercy through CBS.  No mercy is warranted given what Pollard exposed our service personnel to.

v^2

 
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jastayme3       6/23/2007 11:55:39 PM

My comments were not specifically directed towards you. Despite having not a drop of Jewish blood
between our two families my significant other and I donate to JUF and refugee
eyecare project. It's not malice on my
part, I simply do not understand why Pollard has become such a touchstone. As I believe you pointed out, Pollard was
snared and he admitted. He also violated
his plea deal by appealing for mercy through CBS. No mercy is warranted given what Pollard
exposed our service personnel to.


v^2



Maybe I was just expecting someone to argue with my comment and so gave my answer automatically. But as I said I kind of agree with you. He wasn't as nasty as Ames or Lindh, and I don't resent him, especially as I have similar biases that he did. Nontheless he broke the law and got caught. This sounds like a rather sketchy suggestion, but if the Israelis want him free that bad they can give some concession as "wergild". Then we can pardon him, revoke his citizenship, declare him persona non-grata and send him to Israel. Everybody would safe face in a more or less amiable manner. That probably is not the best suggestion but it is at least reasonable. In point of fact, I will give the Israelis this: they didn't follow the rather brutal practice of disavowing their agent when he got caught.
 
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jastayme3       6/24/2007 12:26:42 AM


My comments were not specifically directed towards you. Despite having not a drop of Jewish blood

between our two families my significant other and I donate to JUF and refugee

eyecare project. It's not malice on my

part, I simply do not understand why Pollard has become such a touchstone. As I believe you pointed out, Pollard was

snared and he admitted. He also violated

his plea deal by appealing for mercy through CBS. No mercy is warranted given what Pollard

exposed our service personnel to.



v^2






Maybe I was just expecting someone to argue with my comment and so gave my answer automatically. But as I said I kind of agree with you. He wasn't as nasty as Ames or Lindh, and I don't resent him, especially as I have similar biases that he did. Nontheless he broke the law and got caught.
This sounds like a rather sketchy suggestion, but if the Israelis want him free that bad they can give some concession as "wergild". Then we can pardon him, revoke his citizenship, declare him persona non-grata and send him to Israel. Everybody would safe face in a more or less amiable manner. That probably is not the best suggestion but it is at least reasonable.
In point of fact, I will give the Israelis this: they didn't follow the rather brutal practice of disavowing their agent when he got caught.


And of course the corralary to this is that if the Israelis ever catch one of ours they would be able to get "wergild" from us in the same manner.
 
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Ezekiel       6/24/2007 2:43:32 AM
Pollard has payed for his crime and more.... The fact of the matter is that when you consider what the Israeli's decry as a miscarriage of justice has justification. whether we like it or not there is truth in it.

Pollard was never convicted of treason. He was convicted on one count of passing non-injurious classified information to an ally ( a maximum sentence of 5 years). Pollard pled guilty as part of a  plea bargain , he was shown no leniency (even though he was led to believe he would be by justice dept.) and was given a life sentence. Pollard was never charged, indicted or convicted of treason. Despite all this he was given life imprisonment in solitary confinement.

Compare Pollard's story to these:

* In 1986, Richard Miller was convicted with giving classified information to the KGB, our enemy, during the Cold War. He received twenty years in prison and is now free.

* In 1991, Albert Sombolay was convicted with spying for Iraq during the Gulf War. He received nineteen years in prison.

* In 1993, Joseph Brown was convicted for giving classified information to a foreign government, the Philippines. This was the same crime as Pollard's. John Brown received five years and ten months in prison.

Judge Stephen Williams of the D.C. Court of Appeals called the Pollard case "a fundamental miscarriage of justice."


There is no question that the man betrayed his country, but he has payed more then enough for it. Considering the case and other instances of american prosecution of the same offence..... its time to let him go.




 
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VelocityVector       6/24/2007 3:04:00 AM

Many Americans perceive the USS Liberty incident as a gross miscarriage of justice.  No Israeli was ever punished for it.  You don't see us squeezing your balls.

v^2

 
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