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Subject: Night POWER
Ezekiel    9/25/2007 3:02:07 AM
How is it that Israel is not a fully equipped night fighting force. Elbit is one of the most advanced manufacturers/producers of this type of equipment and yet, the IDF ground forces are still not a complete night fighting force.(i know the IDF made a purchase, but it wasn't close to large enough in scope to equip all Israeli infantry in future combat) Neither was it mentioned in the new IDF procurement plan, nor is any notable Israeli military figure mentioniong this necessity. How after Lebanon and coupled with the Israeli battle doctrine of quick and decisive victories has this benchmark not been met. I will go further and question why there isn't thermal imaging capabilities for ground forces on the company level, let alone on the platoon level??? It is time for the Israeli military to be a creature of the night, with the ability to completely dominate an enemy by seeing it and not being seen. I don't think there would be one grunt in an Israeli uniform that would disagree with this clear need.
 
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Nichevo       9/25/2007 4:34:26 AM
Uh, you're not?  Wow.  Yeah, that is one of the brightlines for a first world military now, IMHO.
 
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Sambation       9/25/2007 6:57:24 AM
Ezekiel, do you know cost per unit, or per solider, rather, to make him night-ready?
 
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Sambation       9/25/2007 6:57:58 AM
Ezekiel, do you know cost per unit, or per solider, rather, to make him night-ready?


 
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Nichevo       9/25/2007 2:05:55 PM
It almost doesn't matter.  If you can't afford it, make the haredim go out and get jobs.   Sell more crap to India.  If you do not have this YOU WILL LOSE.  And Israel, as we all know, cannot afford to lose.
 
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Ezekiel       9/26/2007 1:43:15 AM
the cost per unit, which includes the maintenance of it can go anywhere between $400-1000. This depends on the bulk of the purchasing order, the quality of the system acquired and the maintenance charges surrounding the procurement order.

The procurement of night fighting equipment for Israel's ground forces (only about 20-30% are now equipped) should be one of its highest priorities. The reasons are implicit, if Israel is willing to spend money on protecting its tanks (trophy) and it's airforce (purchasing the f-35) this is just as necessary for its infantry forces, who have consistently in the last 20 yrs been on the bottom of Israel's spending priorities. It is about time they change this and shell out some cash for their grunts, which will give Israel a further capacity and strategic advantage in combat.

 
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Nichevo       9/26/2007 2:39:28 AM

the cost per unit, which includes the maintenance of it can go anywhere between $400-1000. This depends on the bulk of the purchasing order, the quality of the system acquired and the maintenance charges surrounding the procurement order.

The procurement of night fighting equipment for Israel's ground forces (only about 20-30% are now equipped) should be one of its highest priorities. The reasons are implicit, if Israel is willing to spend money on protecting its tanks (trophy) and it's airforce (purchasing the f-35) this is just as necessary for its infantry forces, who have consistently in the last 20 yrs been on the bottom of Israel's spending priorities. It is about time they change this and shell out some cash for their grunts, which will give Israel a further capacity and strategic advantage in combat.


NOT just in combat.  Do you know that US loadmasters and ground crew can load and unload a C-17 in complete darkness, no lights at all, using NVGs?  Do you understand what that means for logistics and security?  Not to mention the aircrew's night vision?  NVGs are a force multiplier in every aspect of war at every level.

And so very few others are ready to fight to "own the night."  If the surprisingly capable Hez are among this number, you do NOT want to be late to the party.  Unless you want to join Ehud Goldwasser, et al, or just to die young and stupid.


I've seen coverage of your blood drives.  In comparison to the kit that US blood centers use, and the selection of sweets after, you are a bunch of cheapasses, which I have been wondering how to fix on your end.  (As an American Jew involved with blood donation, I feel I may tell you this honestly.) 

But bruised arms and fainiting donors is nothing compared to fighting blind against an enemy that sees.  You need to be the ones who own the night, not they.  $400-$1000 is cheap.  Even if it is more it is cheap.  Sacrifice elsewhere.   Otherwise you will need lots more blood.

Hell, a single unit of platelets in the USA is worth $600 to the hospital.  That's one apheresis donation, though some yield two or three units at once. Even a pint of whole blood is worth $200. 

And Jewish blood is not cheap.  NVGs are much cheaper.
 
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battar    Not that cheap   9/26/2007 12:54:04 PM
What do you mean, Jewish blood is not cheap ? Blood doesn't have religion. And if you think one 19 year old soldiers' life is worth less than another 19 year old soldiers' life you probably don't have children and have yet to experience a few irrational emotions.
I don't know where you get your price list from. Simple infra red cameras cost 2500 bucks minimum.  You don't need night vision for everyone, only for those who go out in the night.
Are you sure the IDF is deficient on night vision equipment? When I served, people whose job it was to take a shufti in the dark had infra-red imaging cameras, and people who had lights or went home in the evening didn't. But boy were those old cameras unreliable and expensive, But they did let us see the bad guys.
 
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Herald1234    NVGs are not cheap.   9/26/2007 1:01:19 PM
1.So invest in research and learn to manufacture them more cheaply.
2. Sell themn to the United States.
3. And with your profits buy them for yourselves.
 
No political comments intended at all in this economic solution.
 
Herald
 
  
 
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Nichevo       9/26/2007 3:54:07 PM
battar, since you are not intelligent enough to understand me, there is a risk of me wasting my time if I reply.  Will you get a friend to translate, if you have any friends?
 
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battar    Nichevo is on the insult trail   9/26/2007 5:18:34 PM
Nichevo,
                I'm intelligent enough to understand the difference between NVG's and infra-red vision. I worked on test systems for infra-red cameras. NVG's don't provide the same level of situational awareness as infra-red, and their biggest drawback is that they only work well in the dark - they can be saturated by artificial illumination. Even backlit instrument panels have to be modified for use with NVG goggles.
 
Don't compare the cost the medical treatment for casualties with the cost of equipment,  Most casualties are the result of poor planning, poor leadership, dumb ignorace, (all prime qualities of Israel's previous defence minister Mr Peretz AKA Bozo the clown) or simply going up against an enemy smarter than you. You plan around the equipment you have, not the equipment you could have,
 
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