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Subject: Israeli elite argue for self-destruction
Sambation    10/7/2007 12:14:31 PM
Dov Weisglass, Sharon's former bureau chief and top advisor, is still at it, not wanting to leave the destruction of Israel incomplete: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3454750,00.html His suggestions are ridiculous. Martin Sherman's (poli. sci. prof at Tel Aviv U.) assessment was confirmed by Israeli major general in an email: "Shalom Martin, As usual an excellent analysis by Martin. As some one who debated Weisglass before the unilateral withdrawal [from Gaza] - and its all documented - I can testify that he was wrong in all his assessments regarding the consequences of that withdrawal. Only in a place where nothing at all is remembered, would the absurd situation be possible in which he [Weisgalss] continues to express himself on matters in which he has demonstrated total ignorance and a complete lack of any ability to predict future developments. If it wasn't my own country - I'd be laughing. Yaacov Amidror"
 
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Ezekiel    The exelic neurosis    10/7/2007 1:53:55 PM
The elite in Israel I have long argued have become Israel's greatest enemy. This is a demographic that have created the tremendous security failures throughout its history, not having the will or faith in their country to make the tough choices every burgeoning nation must face. It is due to their complete lack of loyalty to their past which has invariably doomed their future. Israel has not had the ability to nurture through long uninterrupted inhabitance on a specific soil to engender a authentic national conscience. It has been mish mashed together through a series of tragic events and dire circumstance. Starting with the fact that the secular zionists were the ones to beat the religous elements of its culture to the punch of national liberation. Therefore the narrative started off with a secular coloring. The pragmatic nature of the secular zionists gave them the strength to create a nation, but pragmatism is all about the short term, without a guiding authentic ideology (such that Judaism could offer if successfully oriented within a nation building matrix), would not sustain itself. What we are witnessing today in Israeli culture is the complete breakdown of the secular zionist ideology.

Secular zionism in its betrayal of its past, and it's obsessive quest for Jewish normalization has engendered a Jewish culture bereft of the values necessary for national survival. Thus we have the olmerts,baraks, peretz's, weisglasses, the beilins are from  marginalized from the national dialogue due to their  clearly exposed suicidal  policies, but in fact are the main players in Israeli dialogue. It is an utter breakdown within Israel at large, b/c instead in a mature democracy the people guide the systems and structures that lead, here we observe an immature population that are led by the structures and the combina that has surrounded and monopolized it. This reinforced by Israel's corruptionthat has led to the highest levels and yet the people cannot bring there leaders to account. The ex prez is re-arguing terms of his sexual harrasment case after staying for an entire year until he bargained his own terms. Olmert is currently under police investigation and has another two swerling around him and in single degits in opinion polls, but we'll see him in Maryland bartering more land to continue its palestinian hand shaking policy (even though Katyushas are now being launched from the last pull out). Hirschson's out, he actually may see trial. Halutz the chief of staff was busy dealing with hist stock portfolio during the opening ours of the Lebanon II, he's gone. The chairman of the knesset's committee for foreign affairs and defense, Tzahi Hanegbi is still under indictment. The Justice minister, chaim ramon was harrassing. I mean I could keep on going, seriously keep on going but you get the picture.

The leadership in Israel, and the branja of media and academia that hoists them up have brought Israel far, but its time has come. The fatal flaw that has generated this sad state of affairs I repeat is the secular ideologies denial of its spiritual dimensions. In the denial of its inherent identity as the first monotheists that had revealed the first universal laws to humanity they reveals their suicidal tendency. It is in my opinion that in obstructing the spiritual expression within Jewish national identity is tountament to an act of national suicide. Rejecting ones own history and tradition has its consequence. This tendency has engendered over 5 generations an Israeli culture  ill equipped to face the trials and tribulations that the Jewish narrative has consistently had to endure.

It seems to me that is high time for Israel to do a real house cleaning, cause these guys are plain crazy......
 
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battar    Majority rules OK!   10/7/2007 3:32:28 PM
Ezekiel makes some factual valid points, but ignores the context. Israel is a democracy. Israel is run by a secular leadership with no respect for tradition because they were voted into power by a majority population of secular citizens with no respect for tradition. Let's look at the opposite possibility - that Israel is run by Jews who care a lot for tradition, voted in by a majority of citizens who care a lot for tradition. Imagine Israel run by a majority coalition of the religious parties (Shas, United Torah, etc). In that case, Israel might become a theocracy rather than a democracy.  Would they do a better job than Barak or Netanyahu? They might be less corrupt, but can they make the right decisions regarding international and defence policies? I only ask - I am not here to judge them. 
 
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Ezekiel       10/8/2007 1:44:41 AM
Yeah Battar that's exactly what I advocated Rabbi ovadia and shas should come into power!!!

What I was really saying is that from the beginning the secularists marginalized the traditional elements, the proofs are vast for it. The secular ashkenazi Labor had control until '77, and even then they were replaced by semi secular nationalists. What I was advocating was synthesizing the religous elements that have the advantages of long term values with the pragmatism of the secular....this would create a much needed balance. I want a synthesis, a reconciliation, a move to reawaken the religous component in Jewish Identity within a nation building context. Hopefully this context will provide Judaism the catalyst to get on its feet once again and be an agent progress (Judaism has been petrified for a good 300 years). THe secularists providing the short term gain of pragmatism and the traditions providing the long term stability of a real and authentic ideology, both must make some sacrifices in order to gain traction with the other. The reason for both is quite obvious, the secularists have taken as far as ti could go and are in serious trouble, the Judaica narrative has been hybernation for quite some time, and todays context shouts for this synthesis, adaptation whatever you call it. Israel playing the immature card just won't cut in any longer as rockets and proxies surround it.

As far as the people speaking, you can't call Israel a real democracy, its more like a pseudo democracy. Yes there is elections, but the people vote for the party and the parties vote on the list. Meaning there is an intermediary, a buffer between the actual personalities and the people, and we all have seen with the  implosion of Likud, the corruption in Labor that the party system is a joke. There are no checks and balances, the unelected judges basically appoint themselves, that's why Beinisch Baraks student is now The chief justice, a coincidence, i think not. And the unelected judicial branch is by far the most activist in any western country, legislating from the bench. The attorney general is not checked either, basically making himself his own boss. The prime minister has a cabinet of 27 minister basically having 1/4 of the knesset working for the executive. B/c in Israeli democracy a cabinet member is also a lawmaker. The election laws allow for parties to be disqualified based purely on ideology. And then there is the arab component that clearly represents foreign interests and can make or break votes (oslo was passed by 1 vote). What a democracy!!!! Wew....its impressive the laundry list...and again I could keep going.

Don't represent  me as some kind of religous zealot, or some kind of dogmatic nationalist b/c neither fit the bill, I just see a decrepid governing ideology that needs over hauling. I diagnose the problem as being denying real national expression of Hebraic values and tradition by the secularist over the past 5 generations. That doesn't mean I want a theocracy, that is obtuse, knee jerk...religion=theocracy, tradition=conservative. I want no such thing I want a fusion of the religous and the secular, a reconciliation that will allow for a new type of NATIONAL dialogue, not individual, but national one.b/c if it is the Jewish state it should not only give expression to the peopleness aspect but also to its spiritual component. Denying one will have consequences on the other. How and what this expression will be I don't know....but in my opinion this is what will need to occur in order for Israel to have a much needed national healing

 
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Hugo    Welcome to the club.   10/8/2007 4:06:38 AM
If it is any consolation, the elite all through Europe are also advocating Europe's destruction - no come to think of it that probably isn't comforting..
 
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battar    Nuclear fusion is cooler   10/8/2007 2:51:34 PM
Ezekiel wants a fusion of the religious and secular leadership/society. 
I would like to know how that could happen. Is there an example of a nation where this works?
In a fused religious/secular state, is there seperation of state and church?
Not that it isn't a nice idea, but I just can't see it happening.
 
You can't have a national dialogue in Israel because Israel isn't a homogenous society. You have Jews and Arabs, secular and religious, left and right, and sometimes they have opposing interests. The only place you can have a national dialogue is New Zealand, and then only if you give the sheep the right to vote.
 
 
 
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jastayme3       10/8/2007 5:02:01 PM

"Wants  to destroy  Israel", is something of hyperbole. The fact is if you disbelieve in the patriotism of the ruling class you can at least be confident that their power-hunger will fill the gap. To retain power the state has to exist. The only modern state I am aware of that ever decreed it's own dissolution is Austria in the Anschluss.
Israel's security at the present time is pretty well established. Iran is another thing, but even there there is more time then seems:  they don't just need one warhead, they need enough to get through Israel's defenses-it is hard to believe that they will knowingly commit suicide on a small chance of destroying Israel.
In any case, Israel's security is as well-established as a typical large European state in earlier times. That is, not invulnerable but not fragile.

 
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Ezekiel       10/9/2007 2:54:31 AM
Church and state doesn't apply to Jewish identity...that is the whole point of my argument, and precisely the mistake the Jewish secularist makes. Jewish identity is both religion and peopleness aspect, they are both part of the identity. Yes u can be a non observant Jew, and yes u can convert...
 
The unobservant Jew must reject his spiritual aspect, refuse it, but it is still there to refuse, like an inheritance (traditions)....the torah for a Jew is his inheritance whether he likes it or not...they are the laws of the Jews. If one converts (initiated) they convert into a people, for instance when one converts he celebrates passover, this is not about faith, but you eat the bread the jews supposedly ate in the desert, you read the history of the peoples experience in slavery at the table, meaning when one converts he not only takes on the spiritual aspects but takes upon him/herself also the historical dimensions of the Jews as his/her own. Because Judaism is a historical religion.
 
This is not the same for christianity and islam. In these religions you can make a seperation, you can be a japanese christian and indian christian and retain the history of the specific location, but accept the canons of these faiths. Judaism is tribal to a certain degree, this being the reason that on a national level seperation of church and state will never be apropriate for a Jewish state. The torah is for the Jews a constitiution, Moses was their first political leader, the tribes patriarchs are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, these are the ancient foundations of the Jewish people whether you believe in them or not, and they are far too entertwined with a spiritual element (them being the first monotheists) to  get off with, "what about seperation of church and state." It doesn't work b/c being Jewish isn't only spiritual and it isn't only being a people it is both, one and the same. (that is the reason i refer to judaism not as theology but more accurate to refer to it as a theonomy) They became a people in the exodus and a religion at sinai. so for me if an individual Jew decides he doesn't observe...fine, but on a national level this cannot be the case, it is denial on a national scale, and as I have mentioned in my above posts is has reached an ignominious end....thus I talk of a reconciliation.
 
Just because you don't know how a fusion is possible doesn't in the slightest make it impossible and or irrational for it too occur.  
 
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battar    Waiving the inheritance   10/9/2007 3:02:55 PM
Ezekial,
              You claim that Judaisim and the Torah are an inheritance - in legal terms you can waive an inheritance, it isn't "yours if you like it or not".  Your theory of spiritualism doesn't give many options to people who don't want to be spiritual or don't want to continue the tradition of their grandparents. Every one is an individual, some of us might like to make different choices. You explained about converting into Judaism, can you please explain how to convert out of it?
 
You stated that "seperation of church and state doesn't apply to Jewish identity" - I can agree with that, but I was referring to Israeli identity, not Jewish identity, and you seem to have mixed up the two entities. You can be Israeli without being Jewish, and you can be Jewish without being Israeli (as, I believe, the majority of the Jews in the world are).  I was referring to the seperation of Israel, as a state,  from the "church", (for want of a better term). After all, a modern nation has other items on its' agenda besides tradition and ethnic identity. Equal rights for all its' citizens regardless of race, religion and sex, for example.
 
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Ezekiel       10/10/2007 3:06:02 AM
You are pointing out once again the exact problem....
 
The fact that in the Jewish state, there is a huge difference between being Jewish and being Israeli is why Israel has gotten to this point. Israel was created as a guardianship for the Jewish people and b/c like minded individuals that neither believed in a Jewish God let alone any God were the founders of the state they  institutionalized this schitzophrenic Jewish identity. But we can't compare Ben Gurion to a Peretz, there has obviously been a dilution over the generations. The fact that there are non jews that sit in the knesset and make laws for the Jewish state shows the logic of the secular ethos. I ask you battar to read the previous post. I in no way am advocating changes to the individual jewish identity, this is a choice everyone should make freely....but the point of the inheritance is that these are parts of Jewish identity and the unobservant/unbelieving jewish individual must make an act of rejection/denial in order to be secular, and not the other way around. I am making the argument that if the Jewish state is to remain a Jewish state being safe and secure it must come to terms with its unique identity of being both a particular people and a particular faith an encorporate both on a national level in a modest and balanced fashion. The idea that you can have a mock european country devoid of jewish tradition in its governing ideology  I repeat has diminished Israels capacity to fight with the moral justifications necessary against the pseudo nationalist sentiments of the Palestinians and Arab backers, and european sympathizers....already there is close to a million Israeli's not living in their own country. Israel is in a malaise.
 
If ones connection to the land is merely a geographical accident of being born their, and that's all that connects you, then it makes sense for the seculars\ israeli's that leave, why struggle here when one can live just as well in Brooklyn. Meaning there needs to be a deeper connection to the land, Jewish tradition provides this deep and necessary connection, which the secularists cannot, that's is why they are leaving in droves. The point is Israel's current gopverning ideology isn't working and doesn't have the necessary values to reinforce a Jewish state....it actually has begun to work suicidally against Zionism.... wanting to create a hebrew speaking euro state.  
 
Maybe there is some other ideological nuance i'm missing, where the secularists could recharge the batteries, but how I see it.... Its time to reconcile Jewish identity, at least on a national scale.
 
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battar    Points 1 2 and 3   10/10/2007 2:58:19 PM
Ezekiel,
               First of all, Peretz isn't a dilution of zionist leadership, as you claimed, he is a complete evaporation.
 
You point out where Israel has gone wrong, well we can all see that Israel isn't now what it set out to be, but if you ask me where Israel is heading, my guess is that the secular leadership are pushing us towards a Hebrew speaking member state of the EU or the 51st state of the USA, and I, for one, am coming along for the ride. I think most Israelis would be better off materially if this were to happen. No, the secular leadership are trying to shake off the tribal religion/zionism/spiritual/ roots so we can be like everyone else - it's something they call progress. Would I be better off living in London than in Israel, seeing as I have no spiritual ties to the place?  Maybe, maybe not, but just becasue I'm not tied down by my beliefs doesn't mean that I must take the alternative route and leave the country.  Where else would I get such good felafel and shawarma ?
 
 
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