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Subject: Syrian weapons reactor.
Herald1234    10/14/2007 11:41:22 AM
Story and link to follow. Herald
 
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Herald1234    From the NYT.   10/14/2007 11:59:41 AM
The story:

October 14, 2007

Analysts Find Israel Struck a Nuclear Project Inside Syria

WASHINGTON, Oct. 13 — Israel?s air attack on Syria last month was directed against a site that Israeli and American intelligence analysts judged was a partly constructed nuclear reactor, apparently modeled on one North Korea has used to create its stockpile of nuclear weapons fuel, according to American and foreign officials with access to the intelligence reports.

The description of the target addresses one of the central mysteries surrounding the Sept. 6 attack, and suggests that Israel carried out the raid to demonstrate its determination to snuff out even a nascent nuclear project in a neighboring state. The Bush administration was divided at the time about the wisdom of Israel?s strike, American officials said, and some senior policy makers still regard the attack as premature.

The attack on the reactor project has echoes of an Israeli raid more than a quarter century ago, in 1981, when Israel destroyed the Osirak nuclear reactor in Iraq shortly before it was to have begun operating. That attack was officially condemned by the Reagan administration, though Israelis consider it among their military?s finest moments. In the weeks before the Iraq war, Bush administration officials said they believed that the attack set back Iraq?s nuclear ambitions by many years.

By contrast, the facility that the Israelis struck in Syria appears to have been much further from completion, the American and foreign officials said. They said it would have been years before the Syrians could have used the reactor to produce the spent nuclear fuel that could, through a series of additional steps, be reprocessed into bomb-grade plutonium.

Many details remain unclear, most notably how much progress the Syrians had made in construction before the Israelis struck, the role of any assistance provided by North Korea, and whether the Syrians could make a plausible case that the reactor was intended to produce electricity. In Washington and Israel, information about the raid has been wrapped in extraordinary secrecy and restricted to just a handful of officials, while the Israeli press has been prohibited from publishing information about the attack.

The New York Times reported this week that a debate had begun within the Bush administration about whether the information secretly cited by Israel to justify its attack should be interpreted by the United States as reason to toughen its approach to Syria and North Korea. In later interviews, officials made clear that the disagreements within the administration began this summer, as a debate about whether an Israeli attack on the incomplete reactor was warranted then.

The officials did not say that the administration had ultimately opposed the Israeli strike, but that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates were particularly concerned about the ramifications of a pre-emptive strike in the absence of an urgent threat.

?There wasn?t a lot of debate about the evidence,? said one American official familiar with the intense discussions over the summer between Washington and the government of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel. ?There was a lot of debate about how to respond to it.?

Even though it has signed the N

 
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battar    Chinese food   10/14/2007 3:12:44 PM
Herald,
             You ask why trade with the Chinese.  From a commercial viewpoint, try not trading with the Chinese. Everything you buy is either made in China or has components made in China, simply because they have a huge industrial base. So why trade arms and ammunition with them? Restore the balance of trade. Immoral? Yes. Sound economics? Yes.
 
It has occured to me that as long as neither the Syrians nor the Israelis are going to confirm or deny any Western journalists' report on the attack, any journalist can write anything they like. In fact, I have already read three different versions of the target of the attack, and I really don't know which is fact and which is fantasy.
 
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Herald1234       10/14/2007 3:30:49 PM

Herald,

             You ask why trade with the Chinese.  From a commercial viewpoint, try not trading with the Chinese. Everything you buy is either made in China or has components made in China, simply because they have a huge industrial base. So why trade arms and ammunition with them? Restore the balance of trade. Immoral? Yes. Sound economics? Yes.

 

It has occured to me that as long as neither the Syrians nor the Israelis are going to confirm or deny any Western journalists' report on the attack, any journalist can write anything they like. In fact, I have already read three different versions of the target of the attack, and I really don't know which is fact and which is fantasy.

I'm aware that a massive dis-information campaign is in the works. Yet there is something in this NYT story that rings true when I tease it together with such items as the missing DPRK freighter that was delivering cement mix to a country that is practically nothing, but raw material for a cement factory.

SOUND TRADE NO.

Trade has a lot to do with economics but at some point you have to ask yourself when the despicable bandit with whom you trade; should be content with making shoddy running shoes and toy bicycles;  and should stop manufacturing ASATS and tank landing ships with the dual use technology you sold him ostensibly so he can launch communication satellites and better fishing boats?

That is when you need to redefine the trade relationship; or you will wind up fighting the bastards. They are BANDITS.

They, the PRCs, don't believe in commerce: only rape, pillage, theft, and murder.

Witness their atrocious behavior in Africa or in their own country, wherever they have the upper hand? That is what they conspire to do to the world.

Like minded stooges emulate them.

Its insane to conduct any relations with them or any negotiating stance; other than that of an ICBM aimed at them with by a clearly worded demarche so that understand the intent.

Herald
 
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Sambation    China and Syria   10/14/2007 7:47:23 PM
Herald, I believe you are correct in a general sense on the China issue. The US is learning the lesson and will continue to learn it with regard to China. The derecognition of Taiwan was not just a sad day for American political morality but a devastating one for geopolitics. Though Nixon's little visit was probably just as bad.

I agree that trading with China is dealing with the devil. However, in Israel's case I think the policy needs to be intelligent and forward looking. I do think Israel needs relations with China. Chinese thought has respect for Israel as a small, ancient nation. China also will have to make a decision on the Islam issue; it will have to set policy, and given the size of its Muslim population (estimated to be as many as 100million, though perhaps less) it needs to come down on Israel's side of this war.

Selling advanced military gear to the Chinese is a difficult problem. The worst possible thing is exactly what Israel did: promise to sell the equipment and then break that promise when the US says, "No."

But still, even through all this argumentation, something in my gut tells me that selling to China is simply the wrong way to go. But who knows.

 
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Nichevo       10/15/2007 4:43:19 AM
Two reasons why Israel cannot pee in China's face at will but has to have some dealings:

1)  Israel needs sources of income.  Certain people are often nagging about why Israel should receive US dollars when (x,y,z).  Well, one way for them not to suck the nipple right offen us is to sell stuff they make.  Regrettably a key item of manufacture in this case is not wines or prostitution, but weapons systems and related components.  Israel could have used that Phalcon money.  And as we may recall, the US for a time had been willing for Israel to sell them stuff, as a counter to the Soviets, without showing the US' hand.

2)  Air rights.  Israel is surrounded by countries whose official policy towards Israel and/or Jews is essentially that of zombies towards humans.  I can't recall specifics, but apparently air travel to/from Israel is highly dependent upon the good will of a few large Asian countries, one of which is China.  Permissive air travel, that is, as opposed to shooting their way out for every Holy Land charter.

You're probably clever enough to look at a globe and figure it out, at least you will do so before I recall the URL I'm thinking of ;>

 
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Herald1234    Persuasive but...........   10/15/2007 10:28:38 AM
folks around here now already know I have no warm feelings for bandits of ANY stripe. It isn't ideology, ethnicity, nationality, or religion that makes you my enemy. Its your proven banditry. If you rob steal, pillage, and murder, then you are the enemy of civilization and a world based on law in which I fiercely believe.

I do so categorize the PRC ruling class, and their current stooge imitators.

I used to call it the "ism" disease.

Fascism, communism, baathism, etc.

With these kinds of criminal ruling elites; you don't conduct trade. You fight them until they embrace popular representative democracy with direct personal responsibility, accountability, and the rule of law..

Very simple outlook, but then I am a simple man. When I see evildoers, I oppose them.

Herald

 
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battar    Herald sees evil   10/15/2007 4:37:47 PM
Herald, how do you know what is evil and what isn't? Is what Bush is doing in Iraq evil ? Which is the evil side in the Indian/Pakistan dispute ? Who are the evil ones in Northern Ireland, the protestants or the catholics ?
Evil is a subjective term. You don't know it when you see it - you have to first decide if it is evil or not.
 
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Herald1234    Measuring evil.   10/15/2007 6:47:20 PM

Herald, how do you know what is evil and what isn't? Is what Bush is doing in Iraq evil ? Which is the evil side in the Indian/Pakistan dispute ? Who are the evil ones in Northern Ireland, the protestants or the catholics ?

Evil is a subjective term. You don't know it when you see it - you have to first decide if it is evil or not.


Its not hard.

1. Are people murdered because of their religious beliefs, ethnicity, nationality, or skin color? moslem lands
2. Are people denied the right to choose how they will dress and with whom they will associate? moislem lands
3. Are people robbed of their property and murdered and driven off their land because some bandits want to steal their water or land without fairly either trading for its use or ownership? specific case: Darfur, Sudan. specific case: Rwanda
4. Are people being poisoned by some bandit who makes inferior, shoddy, or unsafe goods that he foists on them, because he feels that he is  totally beyond accountability? specific cases: Pakistan, Syria, PRCs, DPRK, Venuzuela
5. Is there  slavery  present , mandated by crazed religious superstition, some political dogma, or economic system? See previous examples; add Burma, Nepal, Bangladesh, Algeria, most central African states, Cuba, and MEXICO etc..  
6. Are women and children without rights and are they mistreated? Pick a continent and a country. Even the US has a long way to go to rectify that evil.

I could go on if you wish; the metrics are there, if you look. Is the Iraqi war evil? Apply the metrics and draw your own conclusions. I have. Based on what went on before, it is still evil, but it is LESS evil in Iraq than it was. Perhaps there will be further improvement, who knows? But by any rational measurement, killing baathist bastards  is a very GOOD thing.

I look forward to the day when the thug, Assad, like Hussein did, joins the rest of the tyrants in the ashbin of history.

Herald






 
 
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jastayme3       10/19/2007 4:38:21 PM

Herald, how do you know what is evil and what isn't? Is what Bush is doing in Iraq evil ? Which is the evil side in the Indian/Pakistan dispute ? Who are the evil ones in Northern Ireland, the protestants or the catholics ?

Evil is a subjective term. You don't know it when you see it - you have to first decide if it is evil or not.

Very few really believe that as the logical end of that is amorality. And you have been amuseingly firm in condemning others on some occasions.
And in Northern Ireland both the Protestants and the Catholics are evil.

 
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paul1970       10/19/2007 4:58:39 PM

folks around here now already know I have no warm feelings for bandits of ANY stripe. It isn't ideology, ethnicity, nationality, or religion that makes you my enemy. Its your proven banditry. If you rob steal, pillage, and murder, then you are the enemy of civilization and a world based on law in which I fiercely believe.

I do so categorize the PRC ruling class, and their current stooge imitators.

I used to call it the "ism" disease.

Fascism, communism, baathism, etc.

With these kinds of criminal ruling elites; you don't conduct trade. You fight them until they embrace popular representative democracy with direct personal responsibility, accountability, and the rule of law..

Very simple outlook, but then I am a simple man. When I see evildoers, I oppose them.

Herald


capital ism ????? Bhud ism ?????? Hindu ism ???????
its not the "ism" that is the problem, it is the scumbags who pervert any good intention of various ideologies to their own gain at the cost of others....  but that may be part of human nature.
 
whether this is good versus evil or simple survival of the fittest...  I think good and evil are religious concepts (you don't see it in nature so why just humans?) and everybody is capable of both at the same time... someone how does great evil can also do great good... and the reverse. the road the hell is paved with good intentions ect, ect. did the Nazi's think they were doing evil??? I obviously see myself as good... does that mean those I oppose are evil???
 
but yes, when you see others doing wrong (and I agree on all you call above) then they should be opposed. and may more stand up to oppose them.
 
Paul
 
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