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Subject: Worse than pirates...
free_man 12    5/31/2010 8:55:33 AM
How is it possible that a bunch of civilians using "steel rods and knives" could overwhelm Israeli Commandos to the point where they need to use deadly force, killing more than 10 people? Even if a few handguns were taken from the commandos in the tussle, that's not a reason for 10+ to die. These are supposed to be world-class marksmen who, besides never allowing their sidearm to be taken by civies, should be able to deal with the situation without leaving nearly 100 dead and injured. Maybe they need to go to the Somalia School of Piracy to learn how to take over a ship without killing and injuring almost all on board. Unless we learn about some stashed AK's on board, which might not even be believed if true, the house may be brought down on Israel. 1. Turkey will cut of diplo relations 2. EU will enforce boycott on Settler/Israeli goods 3. Obama will not stop UN from dastardly sanctions or worse 4. Israel/Egypt may have to allow Gaza to be fully open, enabling them to arm to the teeth and becoming an open terrorist state 5. start of a third Intifada 6. lead to major increase in both orchestrated and solo acts of terror inside Israel proper 7. lead to next full-scale (Syria/Hezbo/Iran/Gaza) war soon, without strong interntational support for Israel Not looking good at all...
 
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YelliChink       5/31/2010 12:44:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/qKOmLP4yHb4&hl=en_US&fs=1&;" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always">http://www.youtube.com/v/bU12KW-XyZE&hl=en_US&fs=1&;" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always">http://www.youtube.com/v/XAMFnu8ZBwk&hl=en_US&fs=1&;" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always">http://www.youtube.com/v/gYjkLUcbJWo&hl=en_US&fs=1&;" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always">
 
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Ezekiel       5/31/2010 1:07:33 PM
How is it possible that an oil leak can not be plugged for 40 days...Surely Israeli operations will evolve tactics to this brand new assymetric threat...remember this is the first time this has ever happened. Where terrorists embedded with activists attempt to kidnap, maim, lynch and kill soldiers, while pretending to be a humanitarian mission. Those who with bats, knives, guns confronted Israeli soldiers new that if there was to be a confrontation lives would be lost, but it mattered not, because in the very least a propoganda victory would ensue as we see enfolding before our very eyes.
 
Allowing these ships to go through was not an option, treating the ship as enemy combatant  was also not an option so as usual the IDF must fight with hands tied its back....the diplomatic  fallout for Israel mentioned would have been provoked one way or the other, by yet another "massacre' or humatiarian "catastrophe, there is always pretense for those nations who do not want to be seen to close to Israel so as not to distrub its interests with Arab/muslim nations (as we saw in gaza 2006)...if it was to happen its best to happen when Israeli public is united, as it is  when it comes to the events that took place on the mamre.
 
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DarthAmerica       5/31/2010 1:16:25 PM
Israel will pay a heavy price for this.


-DA 
 
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smitty237       5/31/2010 1:26:27 PM
Congratulations, free_man.  I hope Hamas has post office box so they can know where to send the check for a job well done (I wouldn't tell them where I live if I were you).  The first part of your post is pure ignorance and anti-Israeli drivel.  You made those statements with absolutely no understanding of the facts, and apparently no understanding of military/police operations.  Set down the game console controller and educate yourself.  The Isreali naval commandoes were armed primarily with less lethal weapons and were carrying pistols as a backup weapon.  Clearly this was a tactical error, but I'm sure that will all be hashed out in days to come.  These "demonstrators" were not peaceful humanitarians at all.  They were ready for a fight and started attacking the Israelis as they were coming down the rope and clearing intended to kill them.  There were hundreds of people on those boats, and considering the odd that the Israelis faced it is probably a miracle that the death toll wasn't much higher.  When it all comes out I'm sure the professionalism and training of the Israelis involved will be the reason this wasn't a bigger tragedy than it already is. 
 
As far as the second part of your post goes (the list), you could be right, but that is exactly what the enemies of Israel want.  Israel was once again in a lose-lose situation.  If they let the ships dock in Gaza unmolested then you would have ship lining up from all over trying to get into Gaza, and you'd better believe some of those ships will be carrying weapons and terrorists.  The best case scenario would have been for the ships to turn around, or for the crews to surrender once the commandoes landed, but Hamas wasn't going to let that happen.  Even a single pro-Palestinian death in the raid would have been portrayed as an atrocity, and I'm sure there was no end of volunteers willing to "martyr" themselves to make the Israelis look bad.
 
Watch the videos and then tell me if you think the Israeli commandoes were justified in using deadly force.  Your answer will tell me a lot about who you are. 
 
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Ezekiel       5/31/2010 2:24:59 PM
How is it possible that an oil leak can not be plugged for 40 days...Surely Israeli operations will evolve tactics to this brand new assymetric threat...remember this is the first time this has ever happened. Where terrorists embedded with activists attempt to kidnap, maim, lynch and kill soldiers, while pretending to be a humanitarian mission. Those who with bats, knives, guns confronted Israeli soldiers new that if there was to be a confrontation lives would be lost, but it mattered not, because in the very least a propoganda victory would ensue as we see enfolding before our very eyes.
 
Allowing these ships to go through was not an option, treating the ship as enemy combatant  was also not an option so as usual the IDF must fight with hands tied its back....the diplomatic  fallout for Israel mentioned would have been provoked one way or the other, by yet another "massacre' or humatiarian "catastrophe, there is always pretense for those nations who do not want to be seen to close to Israel so as not to distrub its interests with Arab/muslim nations (as we saw in gaza 2006)...if it was to happen its best to happen when Israeli public is united, as it is  when it comes to the events that took place on the mamre.
 
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Panther       6/1/2010 1:55:05 AM
So many people are so damn quick on pulling the trigger in their condemnation of the Israelis! Something seems wrong here. Peace activists with pipes, knives and the disarming of Israeli soldiers? Smells too damn fishy to my nostrils! It's like they were ready for a fight, hhhhmmmmm.........
 

 
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brizzydude       6/1/2010 5:49:23 AM
I obviously don't know the whole story but by what i saw....  if i dropped onto a ship and a hoard of people starting smashing me with pipes I'd shoot them too.  It's far too easy to sit back and criticise the number killed - i saw one commetn suggesting that 10 was too much.  would 8 have been ok ?  It's not like they were poking them with drinking straws - some of that footage was sickening with 3-4 people surrounding an obviously prone soldier laying into him with metal pipes.
I am not necessarily on anyones side -just point out the bleeding obvious. 
Armchair philosphers and blind anti-semitism have no place here.
 
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WarNerd       6/1/2010 6:27:57 AM

How is it possible that a bunch of civilians using "steel rods and knives" could overwhelm Israeli Commandos to the point where they need to use deadly force, killing more than 10 people? Even if a few handguns were taken from the commandos in the tussle, that's not a reason for 10+ to die. These are supposed to be world-class marksmen who, besides never allowing their sidearm to be taken by civies, should be able to deal with the situation without leaving nearly 100 dead and injured. 

Attack a police officer with a steel rod and knife and then try to use those arguments at your trial and see how far you get.  The fact that someone is a trained officer or soldier does not make someone either invulnerable or a permissible target unless you are at war.  And if you are at war then they could have legally just opened fire when the ships refused to surrender.
 
The real questions here are:
How good is Israels evidence?
Who shot first and under what circumstances?
What are the laws broken by both sides before the shooting started? 
Maybe they need to go to the Somalia School of Piracy to learn how to take over a ship without killing and injuring almost all on board.

People who fight back against Somali Pirates either win or the entire crew is slaughtered and listed as 'missing'.  Pirates do not advertise when they kill people because it leads to reprisals.  No news does not indicate a lack of casualties.
 
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Vulture       6/1/2010 10:34:24 AM
And thus we once again see the need for powered armor.
A First In suit that protected the operator from smalls arms and blunt trauma.
If it only was functional for 30 minutes , it would still allow for having tactical control in this situation.
 
If not a manned suit, then you need a Helo dropped UGV that can plant itself and can maintain a secure landing zone for the incoming squad.

 
 
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free_man 12    You are ALL missing the point!   6/1/2010 12:07:51 PM

Whether or not the facts are what Israel says, or what the ?Freedom Flotilla? claims, it has still been an unmitigated diplomatic DISASTER! Jenin WAS a massacre, even though in reality it was not!

We all know that Israel has its hands tied and all the cards are stacked against them. Even more of a reason why they could not afford to land on a civilian ship with commandoes. I want one person to explain to me how anything but a PERFECT possible scenario would not have resulted in a diplomatic disaster. Even 20 people injured from nothing more than simple unarmed resistance would have resulted in a diplomatic nightmare. They were set up for a disaster and rappelled right into it.

I am not a ship expert, but I cannot understand why they could not simply disable the ship?s engines or propulsion and tow the ship to port. I guess there could have been a bomb or armed combatants on board and they did not want to tow that potential into port before securing it?

The commanders of the commandoes and their leaders need to be held to account.

 
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