Bzzzz. Nice try. Thanks for playing. You refer, I assume, to the attack on the King David Hotel, while the British Mandatory Government was in power, before the UN vote for Partition? Problem is, the King David Hotel was ***headquarters of the British Mandatory Government***, and, as such, a legitimate military target under the laws of war.

Hi BSL, More than just the King David Hotel. There is also the bombing of the Arab Semiramis Hotel blown up by 175Lbs of TNT placed in the basement in 1948 (pg 125-130) ? The bombing of the King David hotel by 224kgs of explosive placed in its basement in 1946 (website). How about the series of bombings in the Arab quarters of Katamon and Romena designed to empty these quarters of arabs through the use of terror in 1948 (pg 123, 138, 141)? How about the bombings of packed buses of arabs in 1948 by jewish riders(pg 134-135)? How about the kidnappings and hanging of British soldiers in 1947 (website)? Have you ever heard of the Irgun, Stern gang or Hanagah? Here is a quote from a letter from a Arab mother to a son in college in 1948: "Every time we go to sleep, we are not sure if we are going to wake up. It is not the bullets we mind so much, but the dynamiting while you're asleep. People wake up in the middle of the night under the debris of their houses." (pg.137). As far as I can tell the first terror bombings of civilian targets in the Palestine area were by Israelis. Margaret Thatcher stated she would not shake the hand of a terrorist referring to Menachim Begin, a leader of the Irgun and the first Israeli prime minister. It makes the outrage of the Israelis against tactics that the Israelis themselves found so useful in the past appear a little hypocritical. Terror helped found the state of Israel. The page references are from the book "O Jerusalem" by Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre". The website address is http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/index.htm and covers Britians small wars including the Palestine.)

Both the Arabs and the Israelis used terrorism prior to the birth of Israel. The difference is the Israelis immediately stopped using it and the Arabs continued.

That doesn't answer the question, fallout boy. The question is why was it OK for the Israelis to bomb hotels, private homes, buses in 48? Why was it OK then but not OK now.

"BSL has Israel ever used terrorism to advance Israel policy? I am thinking of the late '40's in particular. And I am using terrorism as defined by attacking civilians in the form of bombings specifically. As any Israeli Prime Minister been involvd in terrorism? Was it OK then but not OK now?" The Stern gang targeted British military personnel during the bombing of the Kind David hotel. They were not part of the Israeli government since there was no Israel then. There was not even such a thing as an internationally recognized "Israeli Authority". You may wish to advance the argument that individual Palestinians ( which is how both the Jewish and Arab populations were referred to by the British) of the Jewish religion used terror. Most people suggest that terrorism is the purposeful targeting of civilians to advance ones political goals. We know for a fact that muslim extremists both advocate and excute such attacks. I am unaware of any Palestinian-Jewish groups which existed before independence that advocated such actions. They certainly targeted British military and police units who openly sympathised with the Palestinian-Muslims at the time. Targeting civilians was NOT OK then and it is NOT OK now.

Hi Pragmatist, I would not advance the argument that individual Palestinians of the Jewish religion participated in terrorism. I would advance the argument that the Irgun (headed by Menachin Begin), Stern and Haganah planned and executed classical terrorism attacks against Arab civilians intentionally to achieve political goals. I am reposting below some references for your study. If you research you will see very little difference between those actions and the actions of Palestinians today. And I can come up with other examples, referenced if you wish. Would you please show me that I am incorrect. There is also the bombing of the Arab Semiramis Hotel blown up by 175Lbs of TNT placed in the basement in 1948 (pg 125-130) ? The bombing of the King David hotel by 224kgs of explosive placed in its basement in 1946 (website). How about the series of bombings in the Arab quarters of Katamon and Romena designed to empty these quarters of arabs through the use of terror in 1948 (pg 123, 138, 141)? How about the bombings of packed buses of arabs in 1948 by jewish riders(pg 134-135)? How about the kidnappings and hanging of British soldiers in 1947 (website)? Have you ever heard of the Irgun, Stern gang or Hanagah? Here is a quote from a letter from a Arab mother to a son in college in 1948: "Every time we go to sleep, we are not sure if we are going to wake up. It is not the bullets we mind so much, but the dynamiting while you're asleep. People wake up in the middle of the night under the debris of their houses." (pg.137). As far as I can tell the first terror bombings of civilian targets in the Palestine area were by Israelis. Margaret Thatcher stated she would not shake the hand of a terrorist referring to Menachim Begin, a leader of the Irgun and the first Israeli prime minister. It makes the outrage of the Israelis against tactics that the Israelis themselves found so useful in the past appear a little hypocritical. Terror helped found the state of Israel. The page references are from the book "O Jerusalem" by Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre". The website address is http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/index.htm and covers Britians small wars including the Palestine.)

George wrote: "Margaret Thatcher stated she would not shake the hand of a terrorist referring to Menachim Begin, a leader of the Irgun and the first Israeli prime minister." George: O Jerusalem is a wonderful book. You may wish to read the first chapter where is discusses a continual Jewish presence in the holy land since biblical times. I think, though, you facts are off. Menachim Begin was clearly NOT the first Israeli Prime Minister. Are all of you facts so seriously wide of the truth? Your point was that it was at some point Official Israeli governmental policy to use terror - i.e. the purposeful targeting of civilians to achieve political goals. None of the examples you provide were condoned by an Israeli government. You never acknowledge my statement that before Independence that was no Internationally recoginzed "authority" for Palestinian Jews. Since there was no National Command Authority how could there have been "state sponsered terrorism". Constrast that to the Palestinian Authorities' attempted importation of weapons THEY agreed not to posses as a just the latest in a long line of "state sponsered terrorism" by the Palestinian National Command Authority. It was impossible for a non-existent government to prevent individual acts of terror in 1947-1948. In point of fact, the US government was unable to prevent the Oklahoma City bombing. And the US government has been in extistence since - lets say - 1789. Get at least SOME of your facts straight George.

as to who was "first". it would be very hard to prove the jewish "started it" for the simple reason they hadn't any weapons when the killing started. all those organizations were formed long after the jews began counting their dead. just two small examples: 1921 - eight jews killed in three attacks on an agricultural farm in the north. the third attack left the place burned down and the survivors had to abandon their homes and flee to a nearby jewish village. 1929: over 65 jewish men, women and children cut to pieces (literally cut to pieces with swords and knives) by arabs in hebron. over a hundred more were injured. the survivors were forced to flee during the night to avoid a continuation of the attacks. with that ended approximately 3,000 years of jewish presence in hebron until after the six day war some 40 years later. if you want i can give earlier dates as well. the first jewish defence group (ha-shomer = the watchman) was organized in 1909 to counter robbers stealing produce and killing farmers. in 1936 with arab guerrilla bands fighting the british and killing jews - the jewish leadership did not allow retaliation strikes on the arabs - only perimeter defence of jewish villages and neighborhoods. for a quick read i suggest "the israeli army" by edward luttwak and dan horowitz. it ain't perfect but it is short and to the point. have jews committed some terrorist acts - yes, they have. have the arabs - yes, a great many more. partly it is a difference of culture - what westerners regard as illegitimate terrorism other cultures regard as legitimate actions of war. i am not going to judge. if someone tries to kill me i'll do my damnest to defend me and mine, and if it requires playing dirty - well, as someone once said: better immoral and alive, than moral and dead.

george, you ignored the point i made about the division of "palestine" (the name by the way is european not arabic in origin, it speaks loads for the fact that the so-called palestinian arabs never had a name for themselves because they never existed as an ethnic group - as someone wrote most are immigrants from surrounding arab nations) in 1947 based on local majorities. as for edward said's numbers: someone, i think it was mark twain, wrote that there are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics. you can use numbers any way you want. what, for example, are the borders of the area included in said's numbers? for example: if i to count only jerusalem - then there has been a jewish majority there for about a hundred years (i don't have the exact date at hand). so perhaps the jews deserve to have ALL of jerusalem? and not just the western two thirds? this is what the UN did. the jews accepted this compromise even though it was a great deal less than they had been promised or were expecting. the arabs said no and went to war which they lost. as for american aid for israel - it was decided to help israel because the usa reached the conclusion that after over ten years of ignoring israel and even taking an anti-israel position the important arab states (egypt, iraq, syria to a certain extent) still preferred the soviets. so they figured better a loyal small ally than a bunch of unreliable big ones. the money was given so as to ensure a steady pro-american base in the eastern mediterranean if things got hot with the ussr. israel also helped the usa's other allies in the region when they needed it (especially jordan) - in 1958 and in 1970. the money is almost exclusively spent in the usa thus serving as a subsidy for the usa's arms manufacturers who haven't got enough orders from the usa military. this helps prevent unemployment. is it still worth the expense? i don't know. i'll let the politicians in washington dc decide.

Terrorism was NEVER OK. I simply said the radical Jews stopped using terror soon after the state of Israel was created and after they realized their wrongs. The Arabs still utilize terrorism. And why don't you mention Arab terrorism pre-1948? They were far more numerous than their Jewish counterparts.