Most people don't discuss it because VERY little is known about how things actually work in practice or what systems are being fielded. So if Yahoo news or Defense Tech has a story about GPS Jammers casual surfers will read it and start making post about how some country is poised to wipe out the free world because JDAMs wont work ect. These boards are full of post like that. An example would be all the post on the FBR boards dealing with ECD being so manuverable or post on the Surface Forces Boards about super sonic sea skimming missiles. Take your pic on any subject and you will find similar. Anyway, thanks for posting this.

 

 

-DA 

Like the Chinese posters that claim the US will have no capabilities once they disable GPS by shooting the GPS sattelites. Even after pointing out that the cruise missiles have internal navigations and terrain comparison and that there is stuff like laser gyroscopes, they will happily go on with their fantasies like you have said nothing. Not to mention the possibility of using ultra high flying planes to create a temporary GPS.

   I've always wondered if the US doesn't even have some small, short term GPS satellites tucked away ready for launch and insertion on Pegasus rockets on the spur of the moment.  I would even look to see future satellites have some sort of defensive maneuvering jamming devices themselves that could be activated to avoid ASAT's.

 

Nonetheless, the DAMASK gives me additional comfort that the US is as usual not putting all their bombing eggs in one GPS basket.

How about other JDAM augmentation programs: AMSTE, Orca and Hammerhead.

DAMASK moving target capability is questionable. What I have read suggests it compares the whole scene not just the target point. This make it less than ideal LGB replacement.

Doesn't AMSTE just allow updating GPS coordinates on the fly? Its still GPS - not that it can be jammed that easily (especially with the new satellites), but some contend it can be.
I haven't heard much about Orca and Hammerhead going into production, but mmwave and SAR are basically doing image recognition aren't they?

DAMASK is supposed to be in initial production now.

It will sell recon pods and UAV's as well.
So, who's on the market for this new class of smart killer robots, apart from DAMASK and Spice?

Funny you don't hear much about Spice - its an incredible weapon as well.

 

I think UAV's will benefit tremendously from image recognition bombs. I was just speculating a mortar crew could even perhaps fire a recon-round and upload approximate GPS and in image to a UAV or F/B aircraft, giving very precise information.

 

Mentioning mortars - I would expect to see image recognition seekers on mortar rounds at some point, as well as on 70mm rockets like the DAGR that already have steering systems for GPS or laser guidance. And why not one on the Excalibur round? How about such seekers on the Viper Strike? I could envision such on a bunch of smaller glide submunitions using something similar to the SFW's Skeeks to seek out specific types of vehicles.

 

It may be difficult to jam GPS, but it can't hurt to have alternatives to it and even laser designation in certain environments.

One of OIF's little ironies:  Iraqis bought GPS jammers.  US blew them up with GPS bombs.

 

Don't confuse GPS coordinates with inertial coordinates or geo coordinates.  You would not update a GPS position with terrain image.  You would update the inertial position to better coincide with the geo position.

 

I think AMSTE died because the Air Force finally figured out the impracticality of needing a $50 million airplane with a single pilot being guided with two $Billion airplanes (JSTARS) with a combined crew of about 50 to pop a Toyota truck racing across Afghanistan.  The two JSTARS had to be positioned 90 degrees apart from the target so they could triangulate the target position.  A real peer threat is not going to let that happen.

 

I think AMSTE died because the Air Force finally figured out the impracticality of needing a $50 million airplane with a single pilot being guided with two $Billion airplanes (JSTARS) with a combined crew of about 50 to pop a Toyota truck racing across Afghanistan.  The two JSTARS had to be positioned 90 degrees apart from the target so they could triangulate the target position.  A real peer threat is not going to let that happen.

Why JSTARS have to triangulate to get the target position?

Why there have to be a 90 degree angle to triangulate?

Why the AMSTE technology could not be used with AESA equipped SAR&MTI capable fighters like F-35?

Blacksmith: You recent posts in multiple threads make you look uninformed of these topic. Please add something to back your statements so they don't look like empty barking.

 

AMSTE was remotely guiding an otherwise blind JDAM.  No seeker so it couldn't use pattern matching.  That means it had to be guided to within a handful of meters of the target.  That means the target has to be tracked to that accuracy.  Radar measures range way more accurately than it can measure azimuth.  So you need two aircraft to triangulate ranges to get the necessary precision.  I suspect that they figured out that it was going to be too difficult to get a three plane formation in the right geometry in time for one of them to drop a bomb on a  moving target. 

 

SAR is not unique to AESAs.  Why can't AESA equipped SAR&MTI capable fighters like F-35 use AMSTE?  Same reason mechanically scanned arrays like APG-70s can't.  SAR doesn't see movers.  MTI doesn't see the stationary ground.  So you're reduced to measuring range from two known locations.  Arf!  Arf!

Impractical? The Toyota full of enemy personnel, IED material or indirect fire weapon system can cause very disproportionate damage to our war effort if even one mortar round lands in a populated part of a FOB. The Toyota is by every measure the enemy equiviliant of a stealth bomber. It blends into the local population and it's mobility and speed make it highly elusive against military vehicles with the exception of helicopters IF they happen to be in the right place at the right time. When someone is able to make positive identification on a moving target like this being able to engage it with a precision weapon is a valuable tool. Your comment about peer threats is irrelevant since we don't have military peers. Understand the threat before commenting on them.

-DA

The Toyota truck may be a threat to soft targets on the gournd.  But it is no threat to aircraft in the air.  That means you don't need to set up a county sized formation of aircraft, a $Billion in assets and 50 some odd people standing permanent watch for that truck, which by the way, AMSTE cannot ID.  So yet another asset is needed to put the finger on these guys to ID them.  A single Predator can do all that.  $5million in assets and a couple guys sitting in an airconditioned office on the other side of the Earth.  Oh, and a $100k Hellfire.

 

AMSTE was an attempt to save money by using a JDAM with a datalink.  No need for tens of thousands of dollars worth of seeker to get thrown away.  But by the time all of the assets necessary to support it have been added to the toll, the cost savings are way, way negative by orders of magnitude.  Sounds pretty impractical to me.

 

And I'm not sure why people think this would translate well to God's airplane.  JSTARS can stare sideways so they can circle an area and establish a persistent, if very expensive, surveillance.  God's airplane only has radar in the nose.  To maintain persistent coverage, it would take four aircraft, two inbound providing surveillance and tracking, and two outbound getting back into position to spell the first two.  Oh, and the fifth one circling around to drop the bomb.  Sounds pretty impractical to me.

 

The issue of whether or not they COULD combine SAR and MTI, doesn't change the fact that they DIDN'T because right now they CAN'T.  AMSTE was a CTD (Critical Technology Demonstration) or some other "I want it yesterday" funding sources.  Remember that AMSTE was a specific technology approach to use the two plane triangulation to guide the bomb.  They tried it.  It worked.  But there are so much better ways of getting the same result.  Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.