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Subject: F-22 Caught Short
SYSOP    2/20/2013 5:30:16 AM
 
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Belisarius1234    Three strikes you are out.   2/20/2013 7:44:00 AM
1. Screw up the canopy.
 
2. Screw up the software and data-link.
 
3. Screw up the wingbox.
 
There are other issues, but the F-22 is a program disaster. The YF23 was the BETTER plane.
 
a.  More growth paths.
b. Better airframe.
c. Greater volume carriage.
 
The problem with the YF-23 at the time was a risky engine tech selected, it looked more like a bomber (not cool to the eye), and it was slightly less maneuverable.
 
BUT...
 
That plane could carry air-to-ground weapons, (larger weapon bays)
That plane had internal volume for future avionics
And AFAIK it was WELL-BUILT.
 
Yank and bank overtook air-to air-to-mud common sense.
 
 Idiots.
 
 B.
 
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Chris       2/20/2013 9:54:02 AM
Is our Air Force (and other service branches) out of their minds?  Who was responsible for this weapons program and if they aren't retired, then why aren't they being drawn and quartered? Didn't these arrogant fools learn *anything* from the experience with the F-4 Phantoms in Viet Nam?  They weren't even given *guns* when they first came out - and had to have them retrofitted when we discovered that dogfighting/close-quarters combat wasn't dead (the F-22 at least has a gun), but the point is that the F-22 should be able to engage and prevail regardless - and shorter-range weapons would seemingly be required for that.

This is right up there with the LCS - a "warship" that can't take a punch (a level-1 sea-frame that can't survive a hit that a fleet tanker can), or for that matter, "reach out and touch someone".   
 
For the US to be building weapons systems that can't fight is the ultimate dereliction of duty, let alone an appalling waste of taxpayer money. 
http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Load.ashx?type=style&file=SyntaxHighlighter.css);" target="_blank">link
 
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butch       2/20/2013 12:48:17 PM
Su-35 flown by VERY HIGHLY trained pilot can defeat AMRAAM due to more advanced thrust vectoring and then in dogfight Raptor will be shot down. F-22 is considered high-maneuverable, but its nozzles don't turn, it just change the position of nozzles casings. Such scheme hides thermal trace of engine but adds a little to maneuverability. Super Flanker has moving nozzles, and if properly used, makes the plane unvulnerable.
 
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Belisarius1234    Fallacy.   2/20/2013 1:00:26 PM
SLAMMER can be outfoxed, it cannot be outjerked.
 
If the Sukhoi's countermeasures fail, it DIES.
 
B.
 
 
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Reactive    Data   2/20/2013 1:40:34 PM
I can't remember where/when (i'm fairly sure it was on this board) but I did once see a chart that showed G's necessary @ mach 1 and 2 respectively to evade a missile travelling at 'n' m/s - I was wondering whether if it was you who posted it and if so whether you wouldn't mind re-posting as it was a good ballpark indication of why missiles travelling > mach 4 are so deadly.
 
 
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butch       2/20/2013 2:47:43 PM
AA missiles can handle 20G and evade it almost impossible. Quick braking, which able to perform Su-35, can break radar guiding and give you chance to win.
 
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Belisarius1234    No it doesn't.   2/20/2013 8:07:43 PM
And yes, Reactive, it was me.
 
Butch, an active radar homing missile will eat a COBRA as a FREE lunch. SARH, it MIGHT work in end game, but the key word is MIGHT, as in not likely. It ain't  a video game.
 
B.
AA missiles can handle 20G and evade it almost impossible. Quick braking, which able to perform Su-35, can break radar guiding and give you chance to win.

 
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WarNerd       2/20/2013 8:56:38 PM
Is our Air Force (and other service branches) out of their minds?  Who was responsible for this weapons program and if they aren't retired, then why aren't they being drawn and quartered? Didn't these arrogant fools learn *anything* from the experience with the F-4 Phantoms in Viet Nam?  They weren't even given *guns* when they first came out - and had to have them retrofitted when we discovered that dogfighting/close-quarters combat wasn't dead (the F-22 at least has a gun), but the point is that the F-22 should be able to engage and prevail regardless - and shorter-range weapons would seemingly be required for that.
The F-22 quite capable in short ranged combat, and can and does uses Sidewinder missiles including the AIM-9X. What it cannot do is use the AIM-9X’s off bore capabilities because it lacks the helmet cuing system required.
 
I suspect that this all comes down to is timing and budget issues in the decision making process. As noted they expected to be able to hold opponents at BVR for longer than has become the case (Though that is probably more of a ROE/political than technological issue, as has always been the case with BVR combat.) when the design was frozen for production. At that time, due to already developing budget pressures, there would probably have been a fight going on between proponents of using the existing Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) (and then hoping for sufficient funding to become available to upgrade later), or conserving funds until the more advanced Helmet-Mounted Display System designed for the F-35 became available.
 
So it isn’t criminal stupidity or the failure to learn lessons. Just plain old 'less than optimal in retrospect' decisions forced by budget constraints. If you need to blame some I would suggest the politicians that cannot come up with unlimited funds for the military acquisition process.
 
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USN-MID       2/20/2013 9:22:49 PM

 
B.
 
As you said, better chance is to spoof it or the radar generating the initial fire control solution, which is also easier said than dead. 
 
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Reactive       2/20/2013 10:27:18 PM
B - Any idea where I could locate said graphic? Ty
 
Re F35 JHMCS - VSI's design has major problems, seamlessly integrating the distributed sensors without lag - might well be that an interim is to use a less-capable backup design by BAE. 
 
R
 
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