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Subject: 105mm or 155mm for Medium Brigades
Maple Leaf    8/6/2003 3:31:30 PM
My question is should the SBCT have a 105mm or 155mm gun. I look at the Canadian brigades that presently deploy the French LG1 105mm towed gun with their LAV-III equipped manoeuvre forces. Now Canada does it because of the cost of buying a 155mm gun, but maybe there is an advantage to the 105mm gun. I heard the arguement that the 105mm gun is more suited for the peace support operations of the 21st Century, because the small shell causes less collateral damage while still providing accurate and deadly fire. That is a good point. I'm wonder what others think about this. Would forces engaged in peace support operations like Somalia, Bosnia and now Liberia, be more likely to use artillery if there was less likelyhood of damage to civilians and civilian infrastructure?

I look at past peace support operations, and 105's have deployed more often than the 155's. The US deployed 105's to Grenada, Panama, Bosnia, Kosovo (guns stayed in Macedonia and never actually went into Kosovo) and of course with the 82nd and 101st in both Gulf Wars. The Canadian, British and French have deployed 105mm guns to Bosnia since back in the mid-1990's with UNPROFOR, I-FOR and S-FOR. And the British sent two regiments to support its Royal Marine brigade and its air assault brigade during 'Iraqi Freedom'

Both the towed 105mm and 155mm can be carried on a tilt-bed truck as see with the M777 at www.bdec-online.com/bd-cat27/d271395.htm

So, 105mm or 155mm?
 
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Carl S    RE:Carl S & Ambush   12/8/2005 6:48:05 AM
I dont recall a Pearson, but in twenty years I worked directly with hundreds of Marines and met several thousand. Thought Dragon Fire had been shelved several years ago. The 120mm mortar I'm refering to was described in the Mairne Corps Gazette a few months ago. Will have to look it up. Dragon Fire is definitly a oddball. A major effort to carry automation several levels forward. some amusing stoies about testing & debugging the system were circulating about the same time I retired.
 
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Sam    Arty Eng.   12/17/2005 3:03:31 AM
Havn't been visiting the site much ran across this. "In your time in the Marine Corp Arty did you ever run across Gunny/Top/Master Guns Pearson at any point in time. " Do you know Robbie Pearson? He was my Field Arty Chief in I 3/12. If you didn't run into him in okinawa, you would have to be from the West coast. The old drunk Bas*ard. Forgot more about arty than most people knew. Got me pointed in the right direction.
 
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ArtyEngineer    RE:Arty Eng.-Sam   12/17/2005 3:20:08 AM
"The old drunk Bas*ard" Yep, you know him!!!!! You are right the Guy is awesome, some of the stories he can tell. Have the priveladge of working with him at the minute.
 
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bugmaster       10/15/2006 5:53:46 PM
test
 
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french stratege       10/15/2006 7:44:01 PM
In France , we have moved to combination of 155 mm and 120 mm rifle mortar very accurate, light, and with a 13 km range.
155 mm shell are more efficient against fortification and urban area and can also carry smart (antitank) submunitions or M77 like cluster submunitions much more efficient than a single shell vs infantry.We use Bonus (antitank with dual smart submunition) and Ogre shell (63 submunitions anti light armour and personnel).
A single 105 mm shell is too small to accomodate those charges.
Make the calculus: a single shell of 105 mm has effect of 6 submuntions of Ogre shell.A single Ogre shell has effect of 10 105 shell.A single 105 mm artillery howtizer will fire twice shell but 10 time less effectives.
120 mm mortar shell can accomodate also submuntions.
105 mm shell is also  to light to have efficientness of HE 155 mm agaisnt trenchs or concrete structures.
Choice is easy.
105 mm is obsolete.
 
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neutralizer       10/16/2006 6:03:48 AM
What is most suitable depends on the circumstances - the nature of the target and the effect required, not forgetting the constraints of collateral damage, leaving a 'dirty battlefield' never forgetting own troop safety, which includes consideration of protection and distance as well as munitions effects. 
 
The related issue is the advances in technolgy - in munitions effects, in extending range and in 'mobility'.  The ramifications of the last, which has little to do with tracks or wheels, has taken a while to become apparant because so few armies have it.  For example the Taliban are currently referring to UK 105mm arty as 'the British secret weapon', because of their high mobility, responsiveness and sufficiently effective munitions.  It's also noteworthy that in 2003 105mm engaged in actions against 122mm and 152mm, the fire was two way, and the 105s were the only onse still standing after it.  Of course this also highlights another point - training and competance.
 
Yet another matter is seeing indirect fire effects from a variety of delivery systems with differing characteristcs in terms of range, responsiveness and munition effects. 
 
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Nasty German Idiot       10/16/2006 10:36:36 AM






A-400 Transportable Project ...




 
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Carl S       10/16/2006 3:05:38 PM
"120 mm mortar shell can accomodate also submuntions.
105 mm shell is also  to light to have efficientness of HE 155 mm agaisnt trenchs or concrete structures.
Choice is easy.
105 mm is obsolete."

It seems the US Marines agree entirely there.  The Development Command identified the French RT120 as the favored light artillery weapon for the Marines.  Purchasing was scheduled, but I am hearling rumors it is stalled due to funding diversions.


 
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flamingknives       10/16/2006 3:29:51 PM
I think that the 105mm light gun is a very long way from being obsolescent, let alone obsolete, but it depends on what use you intend to put it to. The US army has always leant toward destructive fires, where the weight of the shell is very significant. The British army, by contrast, uses artillery to suppress and fix the enemy, cover a flank or disrupt an attack, which allows the infantry to close with and kill the enemy. This approach works well with 105mm guns, as they do not put such a great stress on the logistics train, or require clever shells. The comparative mobility of the light guns means that their comparative lack of range is not so important, as they are more easily moved or supplied by prime mover or helicopter.

Both approaches have benefits and disadvantages and both are adversely impacted by the nature of the current conflicts. 
 
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ArtyEngineer    Carl S   10/16/2006 3:42:05 PM
The last I heard regarding the 120 Morter system for the Marine Corp was that the developmental testing was not going entirely to plan!!!!  The Program Manager for that is the former PM from the M777 program, Col Garner.  Main issue I am aware of is the integration of US Optical Fire Control and making it survive the G Loads.  As a favour to the guys who work on that system I designed a Boresight verification tool for the weapon.  Sensible thing would have been to buy the entire system of the shelf from the French which would have included the Optical Fire Control specifically developed for the system.  I also think it is getting a digital system.
 
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ArtyEngineer    NGI   10/16/2006 4:12:37 PM







A-400 Transportable Project ...





From reading about this system I believe the second technology demonstrator/prototype should have been completed by now.  Do you know if this system is something the German Military will procure or is it purely a private industry venture looking for Foreign Military Sales? 
 
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flamingknives       10/16/2006 4:39:27 PM
That has to be one of the ugliest military vehicles it has ever been my misfortune to clap eyes on.
 
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ArtyEngineer       10/16/2006 4:53:59 PM

That has to be one of the ugliest military vehicles it has ever been my misfortune to clap eyes on.
I can live with "Ugly" for my howitzer system provided it lives up to the claims!!!!  Below is from Army Technology, not always the most reliable source of information, but a good starting point. 

Specifications - Artillery Gun Module (AGM) Medium Weight Self Propelled Howitzer, Germany


Key Data
Crew 2
Dimensions
Height 3.06m
Width 2.97m
Length 10.42m
Weights
Weight module 12.5t
Weight with MLRS hull 27t
Weight with 6x6 truck Estimated at less than 23t
Weapons
Barrel 155mm, 52-calibre
Ammunition NATO standard 155mm
Performance
Traverse 360°
Rate of fire 6 to 8 rounds per minute
Range, standard 155mm rounds 30km
Range, base bleed rounds >40km
Air transportability A400M

I would love to see a truck mounted varient using the FMTV, only problem is the FMTV is a very tall vehicle, so there goes anything less than C17 transportability which kind of defeats the purpose!!!!


 
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ArtyEngineer    Oooopppps!!!!   10/16/2006 4:56:29 PM
Got my truck designations mixed up, meant the MTVR, the FMTV is the US Armys new truck and it sucks!!!!
 
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Nasty German Idiot       10/17/2006 8:31:21 AM
On the long run, we will definately see some groups (32 - 64 of these vehicles may be put together , if some more PZH turrets are build or if they even consider purchasing new MRLS chassis for these or take older ones ? no clue about that) But it makes sense to have them for the much more Mobile Army Germany is building.  And they were already tested by the Army (3 Prototypes on the range i will see if i can find the pictures of the test)
 
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