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Subject: Can MLRS replaced Gun Artilery ?
murabit821    5/12/2007 6:23:41 PM
What you mean , when gun artilery be replaced with MLRS

in Slovakia we have MLRS which can fire both 122mm and 227 rockets
is lookd like HIMARS but you can install MLRS pod with one ATACMS or 6x 227mm or 122mm pod with 28 rockets, also new kind of 122mm rocket was purchase with GPS guide system

that this system can fire ATACMS , 227mm rockets, 122mm rockets and guided 122mm rockets
 
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B.Smitty       7/20/2007 12:17:01 AM
Gun artillery will not be replace by MLRS. 

MLRSs have very long reload cycles when their ready rockets are expended. 

They also can't fire cheap, reasonably accurate, unguided munitions.  The only way to get accuracy out of a rocket is to make it guided, which is orders of magnitude more expensive.



 
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murabit821       7/20/2007 10:42:32 AM

i read in slovakian army magazin that MLRS are cheaper than SP Howitzer
(this Slovakian MLRS cost 2mil usd )

also 122mm GPS guided rockets for this MLRS are cheaper

i dont know how much is  this info based on true

link
 
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Jeff_F_F       7/20/2007 4:47:20 PM
I'm seeing $50K for Excaliber, $40K for GMLRS. Spendy rascals. On the other hand, I think these munitions are going to reduce the need for CAS, since with that kind of precision there is less use in having a pilot fly a bomb in, except for hardened targets and such.
 
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Ya222       7/20/2007 6:53:36 PM
you should ask the hizbullah.. the IDF shot many MLRS at them, what's better ?
 
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murabit821       7/21/2007 5:43:08 AM
:) and Hizballah fire many Rocket on israel

but for military using

current army brigades have artilery battalion 2-3x bateries with total 12-24 guns (depend on army)

Slovakia army replaced in one  brigade this artilery battalion with MLRS battalion
it is not usual found entire brigade artilery with MLRS

much better will be mixed battalion
when MLRS replaced one battery
for example artilery battalion with 1x 8 gun batery and 1x 8 MLRS battery (with ability fire cheaper 122mm rockets)





 
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Carl S       7/25/2007 10:42:56 AM
For a accurate comparison the total long term costs are needed.  Aside from the intial cost, the long term cost of all types of ammunition are required, maintinance costs, crew training cost for an entire battalion -  not just for individual weapons crew, cost of ammo transport, and cost for stratigic transport.

Form my own experince in fire planning for both weapons the cost of PGM ammo for MLRS must be considered as the primary ammo cost, if a complete replacement of cannon with a MLRS is the question.  Ordinary dumb HE rounds from cannon are more accurate than MLRS un guided projectiles.  Cannon HE are more effective than the rocket ammo with submunitions for attacking buildings & entrenchments as they have stronger projectile cases and fuzes with a delay time setting.  For a MLRS to replace cannon ammo capable of destroying enemy positions in masonry or concrete buildings and field entrenchments or bunkers must be provided in bulk.   

In Lebanon last year much of the Israli artillery was of marginal effect as it was not penetrating the enemy positions.  Nor was it hitting them with precision often enough.

I have long favored missle artillery for its range.  But not dumb rocket projectiles that only scatter bomblets.  Once rocket or missle artillery is provided with a full array of ammunition as cannon are then it may replace cannon.  And, I dont mean MLRS ammo types that are advertised in venues like this web site.  But ammo that is actually in use routinely on the battlefield.
 
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B.Smitty       7/26/2007 2:22:31 PM

Form my own experince in fire planning for both weapons the cost of PGM ammo for MLRS must be considered as the primary ammo cost, if a complete replacement of cannon with a MLRS is the question.  Ordinary dumb HE rounds from cannon are more accurate than MLRS un guided projectiles.  Cannon HE are more effective than the rocket ammo with submunitions for attacking buildings & entrenchments as they have stronger projectile cases and fuzes with a delay time setting.  For a MLRS to replace cannon ammo capable of destroying enemy positions in masonry or concrete buildings and field entrenchments or bunkers must be provided in bulk.   

There are at least two accuracy improvement programs ongoing for the MLRS. 

The first is the GMLRS GPS/INS guidance package.  This is a 10m CEP weapon with a range of up to 70km (with proven growth to 103km)  using a 180lb unitary warhead.  This munition has proven popular in Iraq for its accuracy and "right-sized" warhead - basically big enough to demolish a building without taking out the city block around it.

The second is the IMI Trajectory Control System (TCS).  This is a simpler missile guidance section and radio datalink.  It uses ground based missile tracking to send guidance updates to the missile.  Rumor has it, it has a 40-50m CEP and is significantly less expensive than GMLRS.  This system was used by the Israelis in Lebanon.

Penetration improvements are also under development.  The French BANG warhead has been fitted for British tests.  And there's an Enhanced Blast Warhead - similar to a thermobaric warhead - which also offers improved penetration.

The Israelis also offer the larger EXTRA missile for the MLRS system.  This is a 150km range GPS/INS guided weapon with a 330lb warhead.  Two EXTRAs fit in one MLRS pod.
 
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YelliChink       7/26/2007 2:37:20 PM

The second is the IMI Trajectory Control System (TCS).  This is a simpler missile guidance section and radio datalink.  It uses ground based missile tracking to send guidance updates to the missile.  Rumor has it, it has a 40-50m CEP and is significantly less expensive than GMLRS.  This system was used by the Israelis in Lebanon.


PLA's WS-1B and WS-2 rocket systems may use similar technology to reduce CEP. The former has 180km range and the later has 250km range. The CEP of these systems are about 1/10000 of its range.
 
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Carl S       7/26/2007 8:47:55 PM
Another step will be multiple size warheads in the launcher magazine.  If the desired effect calls for light precise rounds that is loaded on order.  Or if a building penetrator is needed... or a large capacity bomblet carrier....  All should be available for launch in seconds.
 
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neutralizer       7/27/2007 4:46:13 AM

Another step will be multiple size warheads in the launcher magazine.  If the desired effect calls for light precise rounds that is loaded on order.  Or if a building penetrator is needed... or a large capacity bomblet carrier....  All should be available for launch in seconds.

However, it would complicate maters, guaranteed to end up with part used pods, this becomes more important as lighter lnchrs only carry a single pod. Even more difficult in lower intensity ops where single lnchrs may be deployed widely seperated, this seems to be what UK are doing in Afg where they fired their first GMLRS earlier this week, quoted as having a '200 lb' warhead, it unclear if this is PR licence or true.
Incidentally I'd say that gun HE is more effective against some personnel type targets, bomblets are contact fuzed, gun HE typically comes fzed with at least PPD if not PPDD in W armies these days, airburst is more effective against prone or dug in men without OHP.  It's interesting that after GW1 Iraqi PW told UK questioners to the effect that bomblet wasn't too bad but airburst HE was seriously nasty (of course they weren't using HE M107!). 
 
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Carl S       7/27/2007 8:12:24 AM
You are thinking inside the box there.  Theres no law of nature requiring a single pod or magazine.    There is also no imutable reason the ammo carrier has to be seperated from the launcher for long periods.  In the cannon artillery, towed or SP, we positioned the ammo vehicals according to requirements.  A rocket or missle launcher system with the same degree of flexibility would be vastly more usefull than the current systems I am familar with. 

When we worked the US Army MLRS of the 1980s & 90s into our fire plans its configuration as a one trick pony (well maybe two trick) was more than anoying at times.  Tac Air with PGM or rotor aircraft often had to resorted to where the long range MLRS did not have the appropriate ammo or precision for the targets.
 
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murabit821       7/27/2007 8:35:09 AM
in Slovak case costs

Slovakian SP MLRS  RM70 MODULAR
 (price 2mil usd (year 2007 ) price  including logistic vehicles )

122/227mm
maximal range: 122mm (20km) 227mm  (various)
rounds 28x 122mm or 6 x 227mm


crew 3
weight 23t (without rocket block 20t)
8x8 tatra 815
lenght 9,2m
width 2,6 m
hight  2,6 m



Slovakian SP howitzer  ZUZANA 
(price 2,7 mil usd in year 2001)

155mm
maximal range 39,6 km
rounds 40
5-6 rounds per minute

crew 5
weight 29 t
8x8 tatra 815 (engine in rear)
lenght 13m
width 3,05 m
hight  3,5m


Battery and Battalion C2 and TA are same , Zuzana system is expensive and complicated  than MLRS MODULAR,
when is something constructed more complicated , than need more maintance
MLRS MODULAR compare to this ZUZANA is just  armoured truck 8x8 with Rocket block and crane  (plus GPS and PC)
in ZUZANA case training is of course more expensive ,  (i dont no actualy costs ,  Soldiers  also in training units dont know)
5 member crew compare to 3 crew , repairmen trainig is expensive (for ZUZANA you need Gun repairman )
Driver do no need driving training, just small week course (Slovakian army recruit drivers from civilian truck drivers ) and ZUZANA and MLRS MODULAR are aproximately civilian trucks with some different (8x8,  that in case ZUZANA, engine in rear make some difficult for drivers who are habitual listen engine (in Zuzana you miss engine  )
Zuzana is bigger than this MLRS MODULAR and weight more , than transport of MLRS MODULAR become easier
Zuzana and MLRS MLRS have aproximately same roads ability, offroad MLRS are better , because less weight
tactial radious on road ZUZANA (750km) MLRS MODULAR  (1000km)

also Slovakia have a lot of cheap 122mm un guided rockets in storages


i am wonder on 122mm JROF (GPS guides) price and precision , actualy i dont know
that 122mm rockets are more close to "replaced artilery round" than 227mm rockets



 
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neutralizer       7/28/2007 3:11:19 AM

You are thinking inside the box there.  Theres no law of nature requiring a single pod or magazine.    There is also no imutable reason the ammo carrier has to be seperated from the launcher for long periods.  In the cannon artillery, towed or SP, we positioned the ammo vehicals according to requirements.  A rocket or missle launcher system with the same degree of flexibility would be vastly more usefull than the current systems I am familar with. 
I don't actually understand this.  A pod containing mixed natures means heroic assumptions about the relative need for different types.  If you get this wrong you end up with a stak of part used pods.  I suspect this is the reason that to date pods have been single nature, you might still end up with a part pod (although with dumb munitions the fireplanning application can be designed to round off to the whole pod (been there, done that).  The pods with less required natures can be supplied to meet actual demand.  The only problem is the time taken to unload and reload a pod.
Gun ammo is different, you bcan have mixed nature ULC,and flatracks with ULCs containing differnt natures (either mixed or single nature ULCs).  The point is that with flatracks and ULCs the bty can swap ULCs around using their MHE or manually consolidate the contents of a ULC.

 
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Carl S       7/28/2007 11:49:55 PM

You are thinking inside the box there.  Theres no law of nature requiring a single pod or magazine.    There is also no imutable reason the ammo carrier has to be seperated from the launcher for long periods.  In the cannon artillery, towed or SP, we positioned the ammo vehicals according to requirements.  A rocket or missle launcher system with the same degree of flexibility would be vastly more usefull than the current systems I am familar with. 
I don't actually understand this.

Think real hard about this part

"Theres no law of nature requiring a single pod or magazine."
 
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neutralizer       7/29/2007 4:32:33 AM

Theres no law of nature requiring a single pod or magazine.    There is also no imutable reason the ammo carrier has to be seperated from the launcher for long periods.  In the cannon artillery, towed or SP, we positioned the ammo vehicals according to requirements.  A rocket or missle launcher system with the same degree of flexibility would be vastly more usefull than the current systems I am familar with. 
These are all statements of the obvious and irrelevant.  The point under discussion is whether or not a mixed nature MLRS pod is a good idea.  Mixed nature means the pod holds rockets with warheads of two or more different types.  If you are using a lnchr, eg M270 SPLL, which carries two pods then you can have a mixed load, one pod with one type of warhead the other pod with another type, no rocket science here.  However, newer light weight launchers are only holding one pod, which is an added complication. 
The problem with a mixed nature pod is that it's virtually impossible to predict the balance of natures that will be expended.  This will lead to part used pods, which either have to be abandoned or taken along for the ride.  Given the limited number of pods that a truck can carry this could become a logistic drag real soon.  With single nature pods you can always plan to shoot the entire pod, although with more expensive munitions this may not be very popular.  With single nature pods you can minimise the number of part used ones left over, and make adjustments in the logistic system to deliver pods with the more used warheads.  Topping up part used pods in the field has not been an option as far as I know. 
 

 
 
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