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Subject: Time on Target Questions
apoorexcuse    9/18/2007 11:47:27 AM
I am a bit confused regarding TOT and its use. My first understanding is that it was/is simply the precise timing of artillery fires on a target. Now, I have since then seen it applied to more specific and detailed uses such as: Precise and timed fires beginning at one point and then moving to a new (predetermined) point and so and so forth, so that as the intended recipient (such as infantry or armor) attempts to escape they continue to receive precise fires. Or in other cases it is described as a precursor to armor (or infantry or other forces) moving into a position. In one case it would seem to more a part of a defending force, in the latter an attacking force.

My guess is that my original understanding is closer to what pure TOT is, and the subsequent examples are uses of TOT as a part of other action.

And one other related question, who and when first formalized the concept of TOT (at least since modern artillery)?

Thanks
 
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Carl S       9/22/2007 9:38:59 AM
Your line of thought is correct.  ToT as we used it refered to the time the initial rounds from all canon in the mission were to impact.  Nothing more or less.

Moving the impact points of the rounds about deliberatly fell under two other common labels.  Shifting Targets, which could be done at the command of the FO, or by a preplanned schedule/fireplan.  The other was called a Zone & Sweep.   This was a specialized mission designed to evenly saturate a area with projectiles.  In the first case the intial rounds for each target could be fired as a TOT.  In the second case the intial rounds would likely be fired as a TOT, but the subsequent rounds would either be 'When Ready' or on a time line or schedule.

So TOT as we used the term was a seperate item from shifting impact points or targets about.

The TOT thing goes back to ancient times. Cutting loose with all the guns at once makes for a more satifying big bang, can scare the enemy for a few minutes, and is susposed to gain a few more casualties due to suprise.  Think of musketeers firing in volleys, or a line of cannon cutting loose at once on a advancing mass of infantry.  For indirect fires it was used in WWI under other labels as well.
 
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Sabre       9/24/2007 2:43:49 PM
Just to add to Carl's response -
Under usual conditions, the first rounds of artillery to land cause many more casualties than any subsequent rounds (humans having a normally healthy instinct for self-preservation tend to find cover very quickly).
Thus it is in your best interest to have as many rounds as possible land simultaneously, in that first volley, when everyone is still "hanging out".
 
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Carl S       9/24/2007 7:57:55 PM
To put it another way 36 rounds simultaneously or in close succession from nine batterys are significantly more effective than 36 rounds from one four cannon battery.
 
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apoorexcuse       9/24/2007 9:09:01 PM
Thanks for the answers.  A few years ago I read Citizen Soldiers (my first on infantry and mechanized forces, my interests mostly focused on the wild blue yonder...), and there was some new terminology there.  It seems there a quite often many opinions on who was first with a method, but it often comes down to formalizing the terms for the first time, or in a more clear manner.

 
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Carl S       9/25/2007 7:37:03 PM
Thats interesting.  Can you summarize the several claims to 'first'?
 
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apoorexcuse       9/26/2007 8:27:59 AM
Yeah, the Americans of course...in WWII (that was wiki I believe no reference, so I dont give that any credit)

The other was a Danish website I believe, suggesting something in the WWI time frame by the British.  It was in a link to a link from a somewhat unrelated subject (history of tank warfare in Western Europe I believe, it was a bit late at night...). 

Anyways, that was the one that got me thinking about TOT again.  As I was trying to find the site again there were a number of websites describing the other tactics as TOT. 


 
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Nichevo       9/26/2007 2:04:09 PM

Yeah, the Americans of course...in WWII (that was wiki I believe no reference, so I dont give that any credit)

The other was a Danish website I believe, suggesting something in the WWI time frame by the British.  It was in a link to a link from a somewhat unrelated subject (history of tank warfare in Western Europe I believe, it was a bit late at night...). 

Anyways, that was the one that got me thinking about TOT again.  As I was trying to find the site again there were a number of websites describing the other tactics as TOT. 


As long as you don't mind limited substantiation...

in E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series, in the first book, Triplanetary, there is a vignette of WWI where Capt. Ralph K. Kinnison is show down in his ...uh, Spad?...and gets sent back to HQ with a message from a general in a forward position.  Among the other horrors of war , when he gets to the C.P. (Command Post), it has been pulverized, in what he describes as a micrometrically synchronized German barrage...I will dig into etexts and post if that's OK, because my memory does not do it justice...

next post.

 
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Nichevo       9/26/2007 2:06:23 PM
               TRIPLANETARY (by Edward E. Smith, Ph.D)

      First serialized in "ASTOUNDING," Sep '37 - Feb '38;
           First book, Fantasy Press hardbound, 1950;



...


BOOK TWO
                          THE WORLD WAR

CHAPTER 4
1918

     Sobbing furiously, captain Ralph Kinnison wrenched at his stick-with half of his
control surfaces shot away the crate was hellishly logy. He could step out, of course, all
the while saluting the victorious Jerries, but he wasn't on fire yet-and hadn't been hit-
yet. He ducked and flinched sidewise as another burst of bullets stitched another seam
along his riddled fuselage and whanged against his dead engine. Afire? Not yet-good!
Maybe he could land the heap, after all!
     Slowly-oh, so sluggishly-the Spad began to level off, toward the edge of the
wheatfield and that friendly, inviting ditch. If the krauts didn't get him with their next pass
. . .
     He heard a chattering beneath him-Brownings, by God!-and the expected burst
did not come. He knew that he had been just about over the front when they conked his
engine; it was a toss-up whether he would come down in enemy territory or not. But
now, for the first time in ages, it seemed, there were machine-guns going that were not
aimed at him!
     His landing-gear swished against stubble and he fought with all his strength of
body and of will to keep the Spad's tail down. He almost succeeded; his speed was
almost spent when he began to nose over. He leaped, then, and as he struck ground
he curled up and rolled-he had been a motorcycle racer for years-feeling as he did so a
wash of heat: a tracer had found his gas-tank at last! Bullets were thudding into the
ground; one shrieked past his head as, stooping over, folded into the smallest possible
target, he galloped awkwardly toward the ditch.
     The Brownings still yammered, filling the sky with cupronickeled lead; and while
Kinnison was flinging himself full length into the protecting water and mud, he heard a
tremendous crash. One of those Huns had been too intent on murder; had stayed a few
seconds too long; had come a few meters too close.
     The clamor of the guns stopped abruptly.


..........




     He slithered away; resumed earnestly his westward course: going as fast as -
sometimes a trifle faster than - caution would permit. But there were no more alarms.
He crossed the dangerously open ground; sulked rapidly, through the frightfully
shattered wood. He reached the road, strode along it around the first bend and
stopped, appalled. He had heard of such things, but he had never seen one; and mere
description has always been, and always will be, completely inadequate. Now he was
walking right into it - the thing he was to see in nightmares for all the rest of his ninety-
six years of life.
     Actually, there was very little to see. The road ended abruptly. What had been a
road, what had been wheatfields and farms, what had been woods, were practically
indistinguishable, one from the other; were fantastically and impossibly the same The
entire area had been charred. Worse - it was as though the ground and its every
surface object had been run through a gargantuan mill and spewed abroad. Spinters of
wood, riven chunks of metal, a few scrapes of bloody flesh. Kinnison screamed, then,
and ran; ran back and around that blasted acreage. And as he ran, his mind built up
pictures; pictures which became only the more vivid because of his frantic efforts to
wipe them out.
     That road, the night before, had been one of the world's most heavily traveled
highways. Motorcycles, trucks, bicycles. Ambulances, Kitchens. Staff-cars and other
automobiles. Guns; from seventy-fives up to the big boys, whose tremendous weight
drove their wide caterpillar treads inches deep into solid ground. Horses. Mules. And
people - especially people - like himself. Solid columns of men, marching as fast as
they could step - there weren't trucks enough to haul them all. That road had been
crowded - jammed. Like State and Madison at noon, only more so. Over-jammed with
all the personnel, all the instrumentation and incidentalia, all the weaponry, of war.
     And upon that teeming, seething highway there had descended a rain of steel-
encased high explosive. Possibly some gas, but probably not. The German High
Command had given orders to pulverize that particular area at that particular time; and
hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of German guns, in a micrometrically-synchronized
symphony of firepower, had pulverized it. Just that Literally. Precisely. No road
remained; no farm, no field, no building, no tree or shrub. The bits of flesh might have
come from horse or man or mule; few indeed were the scraps of metal which retained
enough of their original shape to show what they had once been.
     Kinnison ran - or staggered - around that obscene blot and struggled back to the
road. It was shell-pocked, but passable.
     He hoped that the shell-holes would decrease in number as he went along, but
they did not The enemy had put this whole road out of service. And that farm, the P.C.,
ought to be around the next bend.
     It was, but it was no longer a Post of Command. Either by directed fire - star-
shell illumination - or by uncannily accurate chart-work, they had put some heavy shells
exactly where they would do the most damage. The buildings were gone; the cellar in
which the P.C. had been was now a gaping crater. Parts of motorcycles and of staff
cars littered the ground. Stark tree trunks - all bare of leaves, some riven of all except
the largest branches, a few stripped even of bark - stood gauntly. In a crotch of one,
Kinnison saw with rising horror, hung the limp and shattered naked torso of a man;
blown completely out of his clothes.
     Shells were - had been, right along - coming over occasionally. Big ones, but
high; headed for targets well to the west. Nothing close enough to worry about. Two
ambulances, a couple of hundred meters apart, were coming; working their way along
the road, between the holes. The first one slowed . . . stopped.
     "Seen anybody - Look out! Duck!"
     Kinnison had already heard that unmistakable, unforgettable screech, was
already diving headlong into the nearest hole. There was a crash as though the world
were falling apart. Something smote him; seemed to drive him bodily into the ground.
His light went out. When he recovered consciousness be was lying upon a stretcher;
two men were bending over him.
     "What hit me?" he gasped. "Am I . . .?" He stopped. He was afraid to ask: afraid
even to try to move, lest he should find that he didn't have any arms or legs.
     "A wheel, and maybe some of the axle, of the other ambulance, is all," one of fire
men assured him. "Nothing much; you're practically as good as ever. Shoulder and arm
bunged up a little and something - maybe shrapnel, though - poked you in the guts. But
we've got you all fixed up, so take it easy and. . ."
     "What we want to know is," his partner interrupted, "Is there anybody else alive
up here?"
     "Uh-huh," Kinnison shook his head.
     "O.K. Just wanted to be sure. Lots of business back there, and it won't do any
harm to have a doctor look at you".
     "Get me to a phone, as fast as you can," Kinnison directed, in a voice which he
thought was strong and full of authority, but which in fact was neither. "I've got an
important message for General Weatherby, at Spearmint."
     "Better tell us what it is, hadn't you?" The ambulance was now jolting along what
had been the road. "They've got phones at the hospital where we're going, but you
might faint or something before we get there."
     Kinnison told, but fought to retain what consciousness he had. Throughout that
long, rough ride he fought. He won. He himself spoke to General Weatherby - the
doctors, knowing him to be a Captain of Aviation and realizing that his message should
go direct, helped him telephone. He himself received the General's sizzlingly
sulphurous assurance that relief would be sent and that that quadruply-qualified line
would be rectified that night.
     Then someone jabbed him with a needle and he lapsed into a dizzy, fuzzy coma,
from which he did not emerge completely for weeks. He had lucid intervals at times, but
he did not, at the time or ever, know surely what was real and what was fantasy.
 
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Carl S       9/26/2007 8:24:23 PM
"Yeah, the Americans of course...in WWII (that was wiki I believe no reference, so I dont give that any credit)

The other was a Danish website I believe, suggesting something in the WWI time frame by the British.  It was in a link to a link from a somewhat unrelated subject (history of tank warfare in Western Europe I believe, it was a bit late at night...). 

Anyways, that was the one that got me thinking about TOT again.  As I was trying to find the site again there were a number of websites describing the other tactics as TOT.  "

Yeah, well... Like I wrote earlier the ToT is just the indirect fire version of the old muzzle loading era volley fire.  The 20th Century technical aspect is since the various batterys are at slightly (or greatly) different ranges from the target/s and may be different caliber or model guns the times of flight will vary.  So, the FO or battery officer has to calculate the time of flight for his (or her) battery and fire that many second before the 'Time on Target'.  And pity the USMC 2d Lt who miscalculates his ToF by five seconds : (

In WWI it probablly took the various artillery regiments a couple years to figure how to do this on multi battery scale and why it might be desireable.  I'd also be skeptical of any claim as first, as a lot of new ideas tested went unrecorded.  For all we know the japanese might have done it beore WWI in 1904, or perhaps someone in the Balkans wars circa 1912.
 
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apoorexcuse       9/27/2007 8:36:34 AM

 And pity the USMC 2d Lt who miscalculates his ToF by five seconds : (

So the FO does the calculations for all batteries involved, or is it one FO per battery?  And how close is the timing by a good FO, 1 second, 100ms?
 
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Carl S       9/27/2007 12:31:34 PM
It depends on the era & army.  In the US it was possible for the WWII FO to dial in each battery individually.  The faster method was for the battalion fire direction center and the battery fire control team to plot the targets of the other batterys in the battalion and compute the range, direction, and time of flight themselves.  The Brits followed the same method, although their procedures were different.

So lets assume the FO of battery A calls for a fire mission on target 1.  The other batterys in that battalion can monitoring the same circut.  If the battalion CO or officer on watch in the CP decides the target rates fires from the entire battalion he gives the following order over the comm  circut: "Battalion;  Target 1; Adjust Fire Battery A;  Battalion  Six Rounds in Effect.   This alerts the other batterys, confirms that battery A is to continue to fire adjusting rounds, that the other batterys are to follow the adjustments on their charts, and the others should have computations for the FFE ready.  When the adjustment is complete the order "Battalion; FFE Target 1; Time on Target 08:32" is given.

To save time standard items like projectile, fuze, ect.. can be established previous and included in the fire order only when a deviation from the standaard is called for.

There is of course the option of skipping the adjusting rounds and call for a FFE directly.  This is commonly done for prelanned targets, or when speed is necessary.  It is fairly common for each battery to follow the adjustments of the others on registration points and preplanned targets.

This all can be reproduced at the next levels.  Each battalion CP passes locations of critical targets to the regiment/brigade and higher which would be passed to the other battalions.  It was also fairly common to have a conduct of fire communications circut for a regiment or a group of brigades, So that when a battery FO spotted a appropriate target several battalions could join the mission.  With these methods it was possible to mass group of 3-4 battalions on a target of opportunity nearly as fast as a single battery.   
 
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Carl S       9/27/2007 10:59:34 PM
"
And how close is the timing by a good FO, 1 second, 100ms?
"

It varys by situation.  In the case I refered to the circumstances allowed very tight timing.  The rounds that were five seconds off were quite obvious.  In other situations that much precision would be unobtainable or irrelevant.

With 105mm howitzers the effctive casualty radius is roughly 15 to 25 meters.  The typical probable error for point of impact falls between ten and thirty meters depending on the range & other conditions.  I vaguely recall from the artillery school days the student Lts had to get the adjusting rounds within 25 meters of the target.
 
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apoorexcuse       9/28/2007 8:21:10 AM
With 105mm howitzers the effctive casualty radius is roughly 15 to 25 meters.  The typical probable error for point of impact falls between ten and thirty meters depending on the range & other conditions.  I vaguely recall from the artillery school days the student Lts had to get the adjusting rounds within 25 meters of the target.

What range was 25 meter accuracy acceptable, and is the 25 meters the maximum radius?  82 feet seems like an awful large error, but I really have no idea of what the damage done by 105mm is at that distance, though obviously is must be enough. 
 
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Carl S       9/28/2007 6:37:44 PM
"have no idea of what the damage done by 105mm is at that distance, though obviously is must be enough. "

Effective Casualty Radius meant to us: the radius within which 50% of exposed soldiers would become casualties from shell fragments or overpressure.

Against entrenchments: a 105mm projectile must hit less than two meters away to collapse a trench wall.   Three or possiblly four meters for our 155mm projectiles.

Air bursts are generally desired as they have more effcient fragmentation patterns than graze or surface detonating.  Soldiers under cover in ditches & the other micro terrain are not protected from air bursts as they are from surface bursts.  

We usually went for Suppresion or a bit less often Nuetralization results.  Those terma vary in use in different armys & eras.  In our case suppresion could be defined as: Unable to effectively fire or manuver until the attack ceases.  Casualtys are 0 to 2%.  Our concept of nuetralization was: Unable to fire or manuver effectively after the attack ceases long enough to manuver past or to the target.  Casualties would range fro 3% to approaching 15%.  Obviously the volume of fire to 'Nuetralize a company is going to be different from that for a rifle squad or MG team.   And, the time of nuetralization after the attack will vary.   A squad can rush past a 'nuetralized' MG position in a minute or two.  A nuetralized company has to stay that way for a quarter hour or more to get another company into or past its position.

A third term we seldom used was the Destruction mission.  Casualtys necessary for Destruction started at 20% and upwards from 50% might be required for some target types.  Destruction missions required vast quantities of ammunition and we only contemplated them vs very high priority targets, a senior HQ or a nuclear/chemical weapons site.  Even in those cases a artillery nuetralization attack followed by a airstrike or ground assualt was prefered to shooting off many tons of ammo.

Our concepts and techniques of fire were very different from WWI and reflect entirely different tactical and logisitcs conditions.


























































































 
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Yimmy       9/28/2007 7:17:23 PM
I don't know how much truth lies in this, but the tale I heard was that American artillery was based around destroying a given target, while British artillery was based around fixing a given target while the infantry/armour advanced to destroy it.
 
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